Expectations

AKmark · February 4, 2015

Last year I crossed a potato leaf Early Girl with a PL Black Krim. I expected to get all PL and I did, (7 plants) but I am wondering if I am correct with thoughts here, and what are chances of getting a RL. For leaf selection, does it depend on the parents of EG, or since I used a recessive is it a done deal. I also assume taste will vary a lot though?
Anyway, I am trying to wrap my head around segregation in F1's when a hybrid is used.
Thanks, Mark

Fusion_power · February 4, 2015

pl X pl = 100% pl

Variation will be very low in this generation because it is an F1 hybrid. All plants should be potato leaf. Save selfed seed from plants this year and the F2 plants you grow will show every shade of variation from black to red and every flavor variation possible in the parent genetics.

AKmark · February 4, 2015

Thanks for clarifying that, I was not sure if I was correct when a F1 hybrid was one of the parents.

maf · February 5, 2015

Since Early Girl F1 is PL both its parents must be too. I have no idea what else will be segregating in Early Girl genetics, depends how close the parents are, but there will be some segregation. Maybe for flavor, maybe for disease resistance, maybe for any number of traits. Always a good idea to grow several F1's when one or more of the parents is an F1, you will have quite a bit of segregation in the F1 of this cross, although not much of it will be obvious at this stage.

Edit: to put it another way, the half of the genetic information inherited from the stable parent will be the same in all F1's, but the half of the genetic information inherited from the F1 hybrid will be segregating like an F2 would.

AKmark · February 5, 2015

I have found I get a PL Early Girl in about 1-200 seedlings, they are usually RL, and RL is dominant, so one parent of EG is PL somewhere in its lineage. Black Krim rarely throws a PL too, so I mixed the two PL's together, and here we are. These facts are why I posed this question, because they are 99 percent RL strains and one is a hybrid.

maf · February 5, 2015

OK, sorry, my mistake. From the statement in the first post of the thread I thought that Early Girl F1 was PL and that you were using a PL version of Black Krim. I see now that you used off-types from both parents with unknown stability and unknown filial generation, but both potato leaf.

The PL trait will be present and fixed in the new F1, as you observed, since it is a recessive trait on both sides of the cross. Best practice would be to treat the F1 the same way as you would an F2 from a cross of stable varieties, and grow out to maturity several plants in order to compare.

A PL Early Girl may indicate a self pollinated seed from the parental mother, if indeed the mother is PL.

A PL Black Krim must be a result of an outcross somewhere down the line. I initially thought you were referring to a stabilised PL version of it, but I was wrong and you found an off type in a population of RL Black Krim plants.

The main point of my previous post remains the same; if one or the other of the parents is not stable then the F1 of the new cross will show segregation.

travis · February 5, 2015

MAF, what AKMark says is correct. I used to peruse flats of Early Girl F1 in local nurseries looking for PL plants. I usually found one or two every year, nestled in amongst the true RL F1 Early Girls.

When I grew out the PL plants, they produced nearly identical fruit, but the plants were a bit more "floppy" than the true RL hybrid plants. I assumed at the time that someone erroneously harvested self-pollinated fruit from among the same plants used as seed plants for the proper cross. You know, picking an occasional "untagged" tomato somewhere in Southeast Asia.

travis · February 5, 2015

Here's a small fruited example of "Early Girl PL" I found.

I'm going to say that tomato was grown in 2006 from a plant I found in a flat of otherwise regular leaf Early Girl transplants at a farm supply store.

Here are tomatoes from two different plants, one plant was an "Early Girl PL" I found at a local nursery shown next to tomatoes and leaves from a true Early Girl F1 hybrid plant I bought at the same nursery from the same batch of transplants (I think these were grown probably in 2007).

I think this clearly shows wrong seed (self-pollinated) from the female breeding line used to produce F1 Early Girl seed. I figure the female breeding line is very similar to Bloody Butcher or Matina.

maf · February 6, 2015

Thanks Travis, that is interesting.

For AKMark's cross there is a very strong possibility then that the PL Early Girl is essentially the "Mother of Early Girl" breeding line.

**carolyn137** · February 6, 2015

Quote:

Originally Posted by maf

Thanks Travis, that is interesting.

For AKMark's cross there is a very strong possibility then that the PL Early Girl is essentially the "Mother of Early Girl" breeding line.

http://www.idigmygarden.com/forums/a...p/t-30530.html

Above is a thread from idig about PR-37 which might help.

I was going to link to my complete search but forgot to do so.

Gordon Gumbo in the above thread is Travis.

Carolyn

maf · February 6, 2015

Thanks Carolyn, interesting reading, and i must say good to see you back

**Tom Wagner** · February 8, 2015

I have had inside knowledge of quite a few parent stocks used in making F-1 hybrids over the last 40 years. Potato leaf female lines were starting to be the norm and many times when I selfed the hybrids I found proof of the alleged or given parent(s). Early Cascade is another line has a female potato leaf parent. I will likely go to my grave with pedigree data since I don't want to disclose proprietary info.

AKmark · April 2, 2015

I am really surprised how early these plants are producing tomatoes, they are piling on tomatoes. I also have several EG plants the same age which have very few tomatoes, I just thought that was odd. They are all beefsteak shaped too, so far that is.

Other expectations fell short. The F2's of my Cowlick's x Bloody Butcher cross are not quite as early as the F1, all 10 plants, so I am going to reinsert the f1 cross back into the f2 to try and recapture the early trait. Does this make sense? I also have a Bloody Butcher x Dester F1 that is extremely vigorous and early, I am considering crossing it into the f2 of Cowlick's x BB. Does this make sense, since half the pedigree is BB which is the early trait connection here?
I also will just choose seeds from the Cowlick's x BB f2, then will see how everything falls before I start segregation. I do plan on growing out many examples of each attempt so I have a decent chance to find an early beefsteak-ish type of tomato that taste good. Yeah right! lol
I really liked the f1 last year from this cross, it threw a few beefsteak looking 8 ounce tomatoes, but most are round and about 4 ounces, not sweet, but very tomatoey.
I am new to the world of attempting the breeding of tomatoes, so everyday is a learning experience, and it is fun.
Thanks for the thoughts and clarifications

snugglekitten · April 2, 2015

recessive x recessive is why my kids are blue eyed like mom and dad. Had they come out with dark eyes I'd be on Maury.

AKmark · May 19, 2015

The PL Black Krim x PL Early Girl threw bright red tomatoes up to a pound, they taste like EG, with a slightly softer texture, cosmetics are tops.
The f2's should be interesting to sort through. Thanks for the input.

February 4, 2015	#1
AKmark Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Wasilla Alaska Posts: 2,010	Expectations Last year I crossed a potato leaf Early Girl with a PL Black Krim. I expected to get all PL and I did, (7 plants) but I am wondering if I am correct with thoughts here, and what are chances of getting a RL. For leaf selection, does it depend on the parents of EG, or since I used a recessive is it a done deal. I also assume taste will vary a lot though? Anyway, I am trying to wrap my head around segregation in F1's when a hybrid is used. Thanks, Mark

February 5, 2015	#4
maf Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: England Posts: 512	Since Early Girl F1 is PL both its parents must be too. I have no idea what else will be segregating in Early Girl genetics, depends how close the parents are, but there will be some segregation. Maybe for flavor, maybe for disease resistance, maybe for any number of traits. Always a good idea to grow several F1's when one or more of the parents is an F1, you will have quite a bit of segregation in the F1 of this cross, although not much of it will be obvious at this stage. Edit: to put it another way, the half of the genetic information inherited from the stable parent will be the same in all F1's, but the half of the genetic information inherited from the F1 hybrid will be segregating like an F2 would. Last edited by maf; February 5, 2015 at 01:59 PM.

February 5, 2015	#5
AKmark Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Wasilla Alaska Posts: 2,010	I have found I get a PL Early Girl in about 1-200 seedlings, they are usually RL, and RL is dominant, so one parent of EG is PL somewhere in its lineage. Black Krim rarely throws a PL too, so I mixed the two PL's together, and here we are. These facts are why I posed this question, because they are 99 percent RL strains and one is a hybrid. Last edited by AKmark; February 5, 2015 at 03:28 PM.

February 5, 2015	#8
travis Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Evansville, IN Posts: 2,984	Here's a small fruited example of "Early Girl PL" I found. I'm going to say that tomato was grown in 2006 from a plant I found in a flat of otherwise regular leaf Early Girl transplants at a farm supply store. Here are tomatoes from two different plants, one plant was an "Early Girl PL" I found at a local nursery shown next to tomatoes and leaves from a true Early Girl F1 hybrid plant I bought at the same nursery from the same batch of transplants (I think these were grown probably in 2007). I think this clearly shows wrong seed (self-pollinated) from the female breeding line used to produce F1 Early Girl seed. I figure the female breeding line is very similar to Bloody Butcher or Matina. Last edited by travis; February 6, 2015 at 12:01 PM. Reason: add "2007" as date of final photo

February 4, 2015	#2
Fusion_power Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,250	pl X pl = 100% pl Variation will be very low in this generation because it is an F1 hybrid. All plants should be potato leaf. Save selfed seed from plants this year and the F2 plants you grow will show every shade of variation from black to red and every flavor variation possible in the parent genetics.

February 6, 2015	#9
maf Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: England Posts: 512	Thanks Travis, that is interesting. For AKMark's cross there is a very strong possibility then that the PL Early Girl is essentially the "Mother of Early Girl" breeding line.

February 8, 2015	#12
Tom Wagner Crosstalk™ Forum Moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: 8407 18th Ave West 7-203 Everett, Washington 98204 Posts: 1,157	I have had inside knowledge of quite a few parent stocks used in making F-1 hybrids over the last 40 years. Potato leaf female lines were starting to be the norm and many times when I selfed the hybrids I found proof of the alleged or given parent(s). Early Cascade is another line has a female potato leaf parent. I will likely go to my grave with pedigree data since I don't want to disclose proprietary info.

April 2, 2015	#13
AKmark Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Wasilla Alaska Posts: 2,010	I am really surprised how early these plants are producing tomatoes, they are piling on tomatoes. I also have several EG plants the same age which have very few tomatoes, I just thought that was odd. They are all beefsteak shaped too, so far that is. Other expectations fell short. The F2's of my Cowlick's x Bloody Butcher cross are not quite as early as the F1, all 10 plants, so I am going to reinsert the f1 cross back into the f2 to try and recapture the early trait. Does this make sense? I also have a Bloody Butcher x Dester F1 that is extremely vigorous and early, I am considering crossing it into the f2 of Cowlick's x BB. Does this make sense, since half the pedigree is BB which is the early trait connection here? I also will just choose seeds from the Cowlick's x BB f2, then will see how everything falls before I start segregation. I do plan on growing out many examples of each attempt so I have a decent chance to find an early beefsteak-ish type of tomato that taste good. Yeah right! lol I really liked the f1 last year from this cross, it threw a few beefsteak looking 8 ounce tomatoes, but most are round and about 4 ounces, not sweet, but very tomatoey. I am new to the world of attempting the breeding of tomatoes, so everyday is a learning experience, and it is fun. Thanks for the thoughts and clarifications

April 2, 2015	#14
snugglekitten BANNED Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Land of the White Eagle Posts: 341	recessive x recessive is why my kids are blue eyed like mom and dad. Had they come out with dark eyes I'd be on Maury.