native soil for heirloom varieties

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

First let me speak to your post above. If you look at Tania's page for Black Krim she makes it very clear that Black Krim was first found IN the Ukraine, not on an Isle of Krim. The fact that historically there was no separation IMO is not relevant in terms of past changes of geography as it relates to tomato varieties, which originated in South America.

I think really there are two main issues at hand. One would obviously be the origin of Black Krim. I think you are absolutely correct about it originating in Eastern Europe, probably Ukraine, or at least somewhere in the greater Eastern European/Russian agricultural belt.

The second part though is less clear. We all know local conditions can change the quality of the tomatoes produced by any cultivar. Tops on that list of local conditions is the soil. So I think it is relevant to talk about the geography of Ukraine, especially as it relates to soil types and climate. Unfortunately though there are two problems with this approach. I don't think anyone knows 100% for sure exactly the soil where the first black mutation resulting in Black Krim happened. We also don't know for sure if that original location is really the ideal local conditions to grow the best tasting Black Krim tomatoes. It certainly is plausible, since there must have been some reason the Black Krim cultivar became popular and an heirloom. However, the mutation could have even happened elsewhere and only becoming popular once it reached those ideal soils. We do know with certainty soils can change the flavor of tomatoes grown in them. The Greater Ukraine area does have some particularly good soils, but also some not as fertile. So while less likely, it is possible Black Krim does slightly better in one of those less fertile soils too?

Lastly, assuming both those issues above are in fact true, garden381 wanted to know how to recreate as closely as possible the ideal soil for Black Krim in Florida. That's really difficult. It used to be thought impossible to create a soil class by agricultural practises alone, short of simply importing in soil from the outside. Now it is known you can change your soil type in certain conditions. But not knowing for certain which soil type is ideal for Black Krim to begin with, it would be impossible to say if garden381 could do it in that part of Florida.

I could give advise on how to create a mollic epipedon, assuming the soil there is not too sandy and has enough loess/silt/clay AND experiences at least some ground freeze events. (It's actually created under a grassland ecosystem, but can end up being forested later) But that doesn't happen in most of Florida. So I would think even if we could find out for sure, it might be impossible for garden381 to do it anyway, at least in our lifetimes.

So the best advise is simply build the soil the best you can with mulches and compost, things like that. Or as some people have done, grow in containers. Then enjoy what you produce. It may not be ideal, but surely it must be better than a store-bought tomato.

[garden381]

Originally Posted by Redbaron

I think really there are two main issues at hand. One would obviously be the origin of Black Krim. I think you are absolutely correct about it originating in Eastern Europe, probably Ukraine, or at least somewhere in the greater Eastern European/Russian agricultural belt.

The second part though is less clear. We all know local conditions can change the quality of the tomatoes produced by any cultivar. Tops on that list of local conditions is the soil. So I think it is relevant to talk about the geography of Ukraine, especially as it relates to soil types and climate. Unfortunately though there are two problems with this approach. I don't think anyone knows 100% for sure exactly the soil where the first black mutation resulting in Black Krim happened. We also don't know for sure if that original location is really the ideal local conditions to grow the best tasting Black Krim tomatoes. It certainly is plausible, since there must have been some reason the Black Krim cultivar became popular and an heirloom. However, the mutation could have even happened elsewhere and only becoming popular once it reached those ideal soils. We do know with certainty soils can change the flavor of tomatoes grown in them. The Greater Ukraine area does have some particularly good soils, but also some not as fertile. So while less likely, it is possible Black Krim does slightly better in one of those less fertile soils too?

Lastly, assuming both those issues above are in fact true, garden381 wanted to know how to recreate as closely as possible the ideal soil for Black Krim in Florida. That's really difficult. It used to be thought impossible to create a soil class by agricultural practises alone, short of simply importing in soil from the outside. Now it is known you can change your soil type in certain conditions. But not knowing for certain which soil type is ideal for Black Krim to begin with, it would be impossible to say if garden381 could do it in that part of Florida.

I could give advise on how to create a mollic epipedon, assuming the soil there is not too sandy and has enough loess/silt/clay AND experiences at least some ground freeze events. (It's actually created under a grassland ecosystem, but can end up being forested later) But that doesn't happen in most of Florida. So I would think even if we could find out for sure, it might be impossible for garden381 to do it anyway, at least in our lifetimes.

So the best advise is simply build the soil the best you can with mulches and compost, things like that. Or as some people have done, grow in containers. Then enjoy what you produce. It may not be ideal, but surely it must be better than a store-bought tomato.

Hi Redbaron,
Thanks MUCH for your info.
Understanding the overall of your message i agree totally with the issue of ORIGIN of the b'c. as pointed out by yourself and others in this thread as well.

A bit of background on myself and previous growing conditions in my past experiance.
I grew up in South Florida and raised various cultivars in that climate for almost 20 years. It overall produces a generally thicker skin on most varieties which I have grown there.
Native soil in south florida is, near the coast, 'hawthorn'-a composite of limestone,coral, some organic matter and course sand. Mostly unwelcomed for ground planting in Pompano Beach where i lived.
Pervious to that i lived in Sunrise florida-about 15 miles inland where the soil conditions were mainly light sand, everglades peat, and limestone fragmented all having a water table of 24 inches. Here i had FANTASTIC success with 'Brandywine'.
The skins were thick however due to the sunlight and 85+ temperature in the shade.
Now, I have moved to NORTH florida where it is much cooler and has a different soil make up.
Here, i live on a grassy preserve off the arlington river. windy conditions, heavy rain at times, soil is medium sand, some organic dark matter , clay and silt. water table at 6 feet in my location. my ph here ranges from 5.9 to 6.5 in my sloping 1250 sq.ft.garden. it slopes toward the water so i am ONLY organic-not wanting to add chemicals to the waterway and grassland.
the coldest i have seen it here was 26 degrees but only for about 2-3 weeks.

i explain this because i notice a such difference in the QUALITY of the tomatoes and wish to combine my overall soil content from all other locations forming a potentially better soil containing at least some of the geological elements.
Fortunately, for myself, i have access to native soils from south florida, which i have on my properties and can incorporate the qualities on my current plot although it will be in a raised bed due to the volume i would need to fill the entire garden.
My overall goal is simply to produce exceptional quantities of the black krim per plant ORGANICALLY which maintains QUALITY and SIZE combined.
photo 1 is Pompano beach florida-previous residence
photo 2 is current location in Jacksonville florida (photo distorted slightly from resize)

[carolyn137]

I don't think anyone knows 100% for sure exactly the soil where the first black mutation resulting in Black Krim happened. We also don't know for sure if that original

&&&&&

And there's nothing to say that the first mutation led to a named variety, Black Krim, even happened.

maybe better to say that a mutation or mutations happened somewhere in the former Russian territories. I'm not wed to mentioing just the crimean region when I look at all the territories that Russia once controlled and those mutation(s) could have happened anywhere from the Baltic states to Crimea to Bulgaria, to Ukraine, to Moldova to even Siberia, from which many tomato varieties have come since it's NOT all cold and brutal in all areas there.

The same kinf of discussion here is also the same as to where the gold/red bicolors originated from and that's pretty clear since it was immigrants to the US that brought seeds with them that were from certain regions in Europe/

There were many Russian immigrants that also came to the US as far back as the early to mid 1800's and it might be intersting if someone were to look into that as well.

Carolyn, who is less interested in soil stratigraphy than she is in specific origins of tomato varieties/ Different tomato varieties/types have adapted to different soil structures since they first came from the high semi-temperate plains of Chile and Peru/

[garden381]

Hi enjoy one of my krims from today in exchange for an idea of what on earth this small plant may be.
I bought a 'cossal bell pepper PLANT from Gurneys and the pepper died. later,because i did not remove the pepper, i found this growing from the rootball.
I do not plant seed directly into garden, so i could not have dropped it. notice the leaves. Strange to me PL tomato but blooms appear to be set up like some cherry type.
all ideas welcomed
thanks

[Andrey_BY]

I would like to clarify some local moments as far I was born in Soviet Union and have Ukrainian, Russian and Polish roots.

Ukraine is different. It was very rich in super prolific black soils many years ago, but it means nothing as for origin of black or any other tomato type or color!
More to say they have been loosing many of these wonderful soils since World War II when so many wagons with chernozem has been taken to Germany by fashists. These days it looks like they have the same tendency - they sell their remaining rich black soils abroad (tehre is a huge black market for this), because there is a wild anarchy in Ukraine since 2014 Revolution. There is no real laws, the power of nationalists and Nazi and so many poor people...

Back to Black Krim and the Crimean Penninsula. It has been gifted as a toy to Ukraine by native Ukrainian head of Communist Party of USSR Nikita Khrushchev in 1954 after so many years being part of Russian Empire/Russian Federation inside Soviet Union since 1783 when Russian Empire has won it during Russian-Turkey (Russian Empire-Ottoman Empire) war. Crazy Nikita has just wanted to make a present to his native Soviet Republic of Ukraine There was no disputes, because all this was happen inside one big country Soviet Union.
Krim is a great place as for nature, flora or fauna, but you can't say it for sure there can be a birth place of black tomatoes.
But there are so many black tomato varieties came from Russia, including Black from Tula. Tula is an old Russian city about 200 km away from Moscow. It is famous of its traditional Russian gingerbread "pryanik", old traditional Samovar - a heated metal container traditionally used to heat and boil water in Russia for tea. Marina Danilenko from Moscow has sent its seeds to USA.
I've been to Tula city for 4 times for business in 2009-2012 and have no idea it is a motherland of black tomatoes. But they have a lot of traditional Russian black varieties at the local farmer's market. There was Black Prince everythere, because it is the most popular black tomato variety in Russia and CIS.

So I can't say for sure where are they came from (mutation or breeding or a gift from space aliens), but we know and really love these Russian black tomato varieties:
Black Krim, Black from Tula, Chyornyi Prince (=Black Prince), Yaponskiy Tryufel Chyornyi (=Japanese Black Trifele) from Biotechnika seed company,St.Peterburg; Chyornyi Slon (=Black Elephant) from Moscow seed company Gisok; Chyornyi Mavr (=Black Mavr), Paul Robeson, Indira Gandhi, Kazachka, Chyornyi Baron (=Black Baron), Chernomor (=Black Sea Man) from VNIISOK, Black Russian, Dikovinka and many others...
And I'm proud I'm Russian

[Nan_PA_6b]

"And I'm proud I'm Russian"

As you should be! Thank you for all the background information.

It is interesting to learn about what is going on in Eastern Europe, especially since, during the time of the former Soviet Union, we got very little information.

For the origin of black tomatoes, I like the space alien theory.

Nan

[mayax68]

Is the picture of Black Prince? I loved black tomatoes.

[Andrey_BY]

Yes, it is, Maya. This is a Chyornyi Prince (aka Black Prince in English).

Originally Posted by mayax68

Is the picture of Black Prince? I loved black tomatoes.

[mayax68]

Aha, i know that I was not dreaming up the memory of having eaten black tomatoes as a kid. My grandma used to garden when we were leaving in a one family house many many years ago. I must be remembering them from the time i was four. My parents, on the other hand claim that they saw a black tomato for the first time in their lives when i grew it. .

[Andrey_BY]

Maya, you are right - red colored tomato varieties had been dominant in USSR times even in amateur gardens.
Yellow or pink tomato varieties were very rare even in 1980s and there was no opportunity to buy seeds of such varieties in any shops before early 1990s.
Amateur gardeners from the Central part of USSR have been trading seeds by post within Soviet Union including South of Russian Soviet Republic, Ukrainian Republic, Uzbekistan, Tadjikistan and some other Southern Republics or seed exchange with neighboors near your dacha.
There were many amateur seed breeders since 1970s since Soviet people get more dachas outside major cities and small towns.

There were some other places to get more seeds:
1. From collective farms (kolkhoz) where they sometimes tested new varieties and kolkhoz staff usually took some seeds to grow at their dachas.
2. From VIR Institute staff where there has been a huge seed collection from the whole world and they still maintain it in 2018.
3. From other Soviet agricultural Institutes and Stations which took part in seed exchange within Warsaw Pact countries.
4. From Soviet militarymen families lived in East Germany (like our family), Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Poland, Cuba, some African coutries and some other countries with military bases and staff.

As for black tomato varieties there was a Chyornyi Prince (=Black Prince) which became popular in the main Central part of Soviet Union and then CIS since 1980s everywhere and then other black tomato varieties had became popular. But I have no info about Soviet South including Krim, Kuban and all -Stans.

[Andrey_BY]

Originally Posted by Andrey_BY

I would like to clarify some local moments as far I was born in Soviet Union and have Ukrainian, Russian and Polish roots.

Ukraine is different. It was very rich in super prolific black soils many years ago, but it means nothing as for origin of black or any other tomato type or color!
More to say they have been loosing many of these wonderful soils since World War II when so many wagons with chernozem has been taken to Germany by fashists.

Back to Black Krim and the Crimean Penninsula. It has been gifted to Ukraine by native Ukrainian head of Communist Party of USSR Nikita Khrushchev in 1954 after so many years being part of Russian Empire since 1783 when Russians won it during Russian-Turkey (Russian Empire-Ottoman Empire) war.

Krim is a great place as for nature, flora or fauna, but you can't say it for sure there can be a birth place of black tomatoes.
But there are so many black tomato varieties came from Russia, including Black from Tula. Tula is an old Russian city about 200 km away from Moscow. It is famous of its traditional Russian gingerbread "pryanik", old traditional Samovar - a heated metal container traditionally used to heat and boil water in Russia for tea. Marina Danilenko from Moscow has sent its seeds to USA.
I've been to Tula city for 4 times for business in 2009-2012 and have no idea it is a motherland of black tomatoes. But they have a lot of traditional Russian black varieties at the local farmer's market. There was Black Prince everythere, because it is the most popular black tomato variety in Russia and CIS.

So I can't say for sure where are they came from (mutation or breeding or a gift from space aliens), but we know and really love these Russian black tomato varieties:
Black Krim, Black from Tula, Chyornyi Prince (=Black Prince), Yaponskiy Tryufel Chyornyi (=Japanese Black Trifele) from Biotechnika seed company,St.Peterburg; Chyornyi Slon (=Black Elephant) from Moscow seed company Gisok; Chyornyi Mavr (=Black Mavr), Paul Robeson, Indira Gandhi, Kazachka, Chyornyi Baron (=Black Baron), Chernomor (=Black Sea Man) from VNIISOK, Black Russian, Dikovinka and many others...

Sorry, just saved again old reply