Prune or not...a.k.a. to beat a dead horse - Page 3

Anthony_Toronto · February 8, 2016

Linda I've grown the same main varieties for most of the last 11 or 12 seasons, and I'm saying I actually got larger and more tomatoes of those specific varieties in the 5 years in which I pruned back to 3 to 6 main stems than I did in the last 5 years when I didn't prune, significantly and noticeably so. Pruning takes some work, but having to put 8 or 9 8-foot bamboo steaks on these unpruned monsters, and having to constantly tie them up takes more!! And I get that people get lots of tomatoes when they don't prune, and I also got lots of tomatoes when I didn't prune, but I got more tomatoes when I did. And maybe that is because of where you are located geographically compared to my location? Anyway for those who are not pruning at all, how many primary/secondary stems do you end up with? I'm not talking about pruning down to 1 or 2 stems (tried that also one year, with acceptable results but not as much foliage as I would have liked overall so more sunburned fruit than I would have liked), but maybe an average of 5 stems per plant, instead of 10.

PureHarvest · February 8, 2016

Linda that is very helpful.
This spring/summer I will be trying about a dozen dwarf varieties.
Gonna grow them in 5-gal bags. Probably 3 bags of each type, so about 36 bags.
That, and dwarf hunting for the Morty family.
Was planning 2 feet of space between bags. What do you think for distance between the rows?
Was also gonna experiment doing a few with 2 plants in one bag and pruning to one stem on each.
After the advice here, I know that is unconventional, but I like to experiment.
Not only do I want to try dwarfs overall, I want to see how they grow in my system on a small scale and determine how many plants I could fit into a 30x72 heated greenhouse for fall/winter production.
Basically, I want to see how they grow this summer and come up with a plan for a future expanded growout. I'm thinking their lower yield would be offset by the fact that you could get more of them in the same area as a full size, and with less labor in pruning and stringing/trellising.

Labradors2 · February 8, 2016

Anthony, it's most interesting that you get more fruit when you prune!

I'm in Kingston and my veggie garden gets full sun. I don't prune at all! I plan to, but when it comes right down to it, I hate to remove perfectly good, healthy growth...... My system is an overhead wooden bar, about 8' tall with strings suspended. I tie all the new growth up (which IS lots of work) and the whole thing looks like a macramé work of art. Later in the season, I can tuck more new growth in amongst the stems that are tied.

I don't need bigger or more tomatoes, but it would be nice if it didn't look quite so much like a jungle!

Linda

Labradors2 · February 8, 2016

PureHarvest

I'm sure you're going to LOVE all those dwarfs!

Distance between rows needs to be big so that you can get in between them to work - and pick. The minimum recommended distance is 4 feet.

I think you can certainly put two plants in one bag. I've done that with two seedlings in a pot, simply because I couldn't bear to throw one away. You'll probably get less yield, but it will be an interesting experiment.

Don't forget about Dwarf Arctic Rose, the smallest and earliest from the Dwarf Project!

I'm not sure how pruning a dwarf would work though. Think of it as pruning a Christmas Tree like you would a tomato

.

Good luck!
Linda

Quote:

Originally Posted by PureHarvest

Linda that is very helpful.
This spring/summer I will be trying about a dozen dwarf varieties.
Gonna grow them in 5-gal bags. Probably 3 bags of each type, so about 36 bags.
That, and dwarf hunting for the Morty family.
Was planning 2 feet of space between bags. What do you think for distance between the rows?
Was also gonna experiment doing a few with 2 plants in one bag and pruning to one stem on each.
After the advice here, I know that is unconventional, but I like to experiment.
Not only do I want to try dwarfs overall, I want to see how they grow in my system on a small scale and determine how many plants I could fit into a 30x72 heated greenhouse for fall/winter production.
Basically, I want to see how they grow this summer and come up with a plan for a future expanded growout. I'm thinking their lower yield would be offset by the fact that you could get more of them in the same area as a full size, and with less labor in pruning and stringing/trellising.

Worth1 · February 8, 2016

Quote:

Originally Posted by PureHarvest

Originally Posted by Worth1 View Post
"If you ever grow Galina's you might think other wise.
Seems like right now that is all it wants to have, 'one stem.
All of them are like that."

I was just trying to be light there Worth. I'm not sure what you mean.

I was being light back.
You should see these things they are starting out as their own tomato stake.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anthony_Toronto

Linda I've grown the same main varieties for most of the last 11 or 12 seasons, and I'm saying I actually got larger and more tomatoes of those specific varieties in the 5 years in which I pruned back to 3 to 6 main stems than I did in the last 5 years when I didn't prune, significantly and noticeably so. Pruning takes some work, but having to put 8 or 9 8-foot bamboo steaks on these unpruned monsters, and having to constantly tie them up takes more!! And I get that people get lots of tomatoes when they don't prune, and I also got lots of tomatoes when I didn't prune, but I got more tomatoes when I did. And maybe that is because of where you are located geographically compared to my location? Anyway for those who are not pruning at all, how many primary/secondary stems do you end up with? I'm not talking about pruning down to 1 or 2 stems (tried that also one year, with acceptable results but not as much foliage as I would have liked overall so more sunburned fruit than I would have liked), but maybe an average of 5 stems per plant, instead of 10.

Depends on what it is.
Examples red rocket is a branching bush of a thing.
Orange Russian and NAR at my place have been use for jungle warfare training.
The Orange Russian I have in a container that is about 18 inches tall has split to three main stems at the same spot on its own with many more growing.

There is no way anyone is going to convince me in my hot climate that I can get more tomatoes by pruning.
I will say why here as I have many times and explain it in great detail.

If I start cutting branches and just liet tomatoes grow on two or three main stems some say one I will get I can promise you maybe 4 tomatoes.
As these main stems grow taller it gets hotter at about 3 to 4 feet up many time the blossoms start to drop due to the heat.
By letting the lower branches grow and put out fruit I get many more tomatoes.

As I am sitting here right now I have counted as may as 50 or 60 Cherokee Purple set bloom tomatoes growing on one plant I stopped counting and estimated close to 80 on that one plant.
One mega bloom and the rest good sized tomatoes up to around 6 feet and falling over the side.
In my opinion if the plant is struggling to support that many branches and tomatoes it isn't being feed and watered enough.
It is low on nitrogen and being feed to much (make more blooms) low nitrogen tomato food.

And I will say this again I have dumped so much 13-13-13 on my garden the whole place turned dark blue green the tips burned a wee bit.
This is how I can tell when to stop.
If it isn't happening I have something else going on like a pH problem.
I have done the same thing with organic fertilizer.
I had cucumbers peppers squash and tomatoes running out my ears.
Disease I dont really have a problem with it.
When it does hit the season is about over anyway.
If I see a suspect leaf I dont screw around I amputate.
Sometimes I can save half a leaf this way.

Worth

Anthony_Toronto · February 9, 2016

Hi Linda, I do think my pruning is not like the pruning of many (which I would consider to be more severe...that includes those of friends whose gardens I've visited close by). I was willing to put up with the extra work and massive jungles for the promise of more tomatoes, but year after year that just didn't happen. And I couldn't believe seeing the plants at my friends' places with one or two stems covered in bunches of big tomatoes (but in my opinion with too few branches to realize maximum potential flavour...as some of the pruning seemed to involve pruning of some branches as well as stems). I also tried to leave as many stems as possible to maximize fruit set in light of so much inconsistent weather recently that resulted in a lot of blossom drop. Anyway it is time to change it up and see what happens. And I could do some experimentation...I'll probably have 12 varieties and 24 plants total...that is what fits with no pruning...I could up that to 36 plants with 3 of each variety, 2 pruned to half the size of an unpruned...and see what happens. Maybe I should do a 2 stem, a 4 stem, and a free-for-all of each variety.

Worth that heat must be crazy down there! And I did have a lot of suspect leaves and branches, I'm sure that didn't help with production, but hopefully that is one thing that will definitely improve with a little more 'plant management', and treatment before foliar problems show up in the first place. We do get some nasty heat up here in the summer, and plenty of humidity, and for the last few seasons there has been very little consistency, with cold and damp, moderate and dry, hot an humid, the poor plants don't know what to do! At this point I just can't wait to get things started...such a shame that we really only have 2 months of good harvesting up here, maybe with peak flavour lasting about 3 weeks or so.

SueCT · February 9, 2016

You can't discount the role of genetics, weather, soil, water and fertilizing on the number and size of tomatoes you get. There are so many variables, some out of your control. I never prune any more, and I usually get good quantities of large tomatoes. But I can plant the same variety in two different years and get somewhat larger or smaller fruit one year to the next. Some plants just give larger fruit, like Kellogg's Breakfast and Brandywine, whereas I will never see fruit that large from Sophies Choice. I did notice a little larger fruit back when I was pruning, but the quantity was always lower. I also found if I didn't use a fungicide, and sometimes even when I did, when foliage diseases hit, and I had to start removing leaves, the entire plants suffered because they no longer had enough leaves to grow, thrive and keep producing more fruit. I almost always ended up pulling the plants earlier in the year with a few poor tomatoes hanging off of almost bare vines. I also got more sunscald and disease on the fruit themselves. I do find spacing the plants out more does help with disease issues. So, I think everyone should do what they think works best for their situation. But I certainly have learned that a plant full of healthy, green leaves gives me the best results. But you already knew what most here would say, and you certainly don't need the "blessing" of anyone here or elsewhere to do what ever you want in your own garden.

These fruit were still growing, and most ended up at around 1 lb or better:

MrBig46 · February 9, 2016

Larger harvest per unit of cultivated area is unequivocally from the plants prořezávaných. It requires no expert, just look at how tomatoes are grown in large greenhouses. Businessmen are not fools to put more work into smaller harvest.
Vladimír

PureHarvest · February 9, 2016

I hear you Vlad.
Like here, lots of pruning and lots of maters:

tomatoes-500x248.jpg

BUT, they are grown indoors in controlled environment over a much longer timeline than outdoors...

A better comparison would be to prune like this outdoors and letting them grow unpruned outdoors in the same garden.

BigVanVader · February 9, 2016

Quote:

prořezávaných

Please explain what that word means someone? Good point though. I've never seen a commercial farm that didn't prune vigorously.

PureHarvest · February 9, 2016

I would think based on context it means pruned?

One more point. I'm not sure if were are all using the same definition for "pruning".

To me it means removing suckers, not leaves.

Ricky Shaw · February 9, 2016

I think this seven paragraph synopsis by Mike Morton of Hydro-Gardens is very informative, while being understandable for the novice.

He also makes some good points on snapping vs cutting, elaborates and offers this...
"The plant has natural breaking points which will allow the plant to heal quicker and not leave any small remaining plant parts that will later die and allow an entry point for fungus."

Still, I plan to do minimal pruning. I like baseball too.

Why Should I Prune - https://hydro-gardens.com/support/f-a-q-page/

Worth1 · February 9, 2016

Both examples aren't a fare comparison to naturally grown plants.
They are the plant equivalent of mass produced beef pigs chickens and eggs.
Also look at the latitude some of the huge green houses are and where Vladimir lives.
That process would work great for me if I had a greenhouse and grew in the winter.

Look at the type of tomatoes they are growing too.
The use of the term sucker when talking about pruning natural limbs on a tomato plant is wrong.
A sucker a a basal shoot or something coming from the roots.
When we hear discussion about pruning fruit trees we dont use the term sucker we say branches.
These suckers are called tillers on corn.

PureHarvest · February 9, 2016

Worth, I agree botanically speaking. Suckers are what I can't keep my Hawthorne tree from sending up from its roots.
Never understood why branches on a tomato plant were called suckers, but everywhere i go, that is what they are called. Would the term for that be colloquialism?

I am just stunned at this topic. I never would have guessed pruning was such a hot button issue with tomato folks.

I'll add it to my list of threads to avoid, along with:
Politics, faith, organic, GMO, and diet/nutrition...and pH and fertilizer.

Worth1 · February 9, 2016

Quote:

Originally Posted by PureHarvest

Worth, I agree botanically speaking. Suckers are what I can't keep my Hawthorne tree from sending up from its roots.
Never understood why branches on a tomato plant were called suckers, but everywhere i go, that is what they are called. Would the term for that be colloquialism?

I am just stunned at this topic. I never would have guessed pruning was such a hot button issue with tomato folks.

I'll add it to my list of threads to avoid, along with:
Politics, faith, organic, GMO, and diet/nutrition...and pH and fertilizer.

Whats the deal with the pH?
I have a whole thread on it here and no one argued.

Worth

February 9, 2016	#44
PureHarvest Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Mid-Atlantic right on the line of Zone 7a and 7b Posts: 1,369	Worth, I agree botanically speaking. Suckers are what I can't keep my Hawthorne tree from sending up from its roots. Never understood why branches on a tomato plant were called suckers, but everywhere i go, that is what they are called. Would the term for that be colloquialism? I am just stunned at this topic. I never would have guessed pruning was such a hot button issue with tomato folks. I'll add it to my list of threads to avoid, along with: Politics, faith, organic, GMO, and diet/nutrition...and pH and fertilizer. Last edited by PureHarvest; February 9, 2016 at 01:51 PM.

February 8, 2016	#31
Anthony_Toronto Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Toronto Posts: 413	Linda I've grown the same main varieties for most of the last 11 or 12 seasons, and I'm saying I actually got larger and more tomatoes of those specific varieties in the 5 years in which I pruned back to 3 to 6 main stems than I did in the last 5 years when I didn't prune, significantly and noticeably so. Pruning takes some work, but having to put 8 or 9 8-foot bamboo steaks on these unpruned monsters, and having to constantly tie them up takes more!! And I get that people get lots of tomatoes when they don't prune, and I also got lots of tomatoes when I didn't prune, but I got more tomatoes when I did. And maybe that is because of where you are located geographically compared to my location? Anyway for those who are not pruning at all, how many primary/secondary stems do you end up with? I'm not talking about pruning down to 1 or 2 stems (tried that also one year, with acceptable results but not as much foliage as I would have liked overall so more sunburned fruit than I would have liked), but maybe an average of 5 stems per plant, instead of 10.

February 8, 2016	#33
Labradors2 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Ontario Posts: 3,896	Anthony, it's most interesting that you get more fruit when you prune! I'm in Kingston and my veggie garden gets full sun. I don't prune at all! I plan to, but when it comes right down to it, I hate to remove perfectly good, healthy growth...... My system is an overhead wooden bar, about 8' tall with strings suspended. I tie all the new growth up (which IS lots of work) and the whole thing looks like a macramé work of art. Later in the season, I can tuck more new growth in amongst the stems that are tied. I don't need bigger or more tomatoes, but it would be nice if it didn't look quite so much like a jungle! Linda

February 9, 2016	#37
SueCT Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Connecticut Posts: 1,460	You can't discount the role of genetics, weather, soil, water and fertilizing on the number and size of tomatoes you get. There are so many variables, some out of your control. I never prune any more, and I usually get good quantities of large tomatoes. But I can plant the same variety in two different years and get somewhat larger or smaller fruit one year to the next. Some plants just give larger fruit, like Kellogg's Breakfast and Brandywine, whereas I will never see fruit that large from Sophies Choice. I did notice a little larger fruit back when I was pruning, but the quantity was always lower. I also found if I didn't use a fungicide, and sometimes even when I did, when foliage diseases hit, and I had to start removing leaves, the entire plants suffered because they no longer had enough leaves to grow, thrive and keep producing more fruit. I almost always ended up pulling the plants earlier in the year with a few poor tomatoes hanging off of almost bare vines. I also got more sunscald and disease on the fruit themselves. I do find spacing the plants out more does help with disease issues. So, I think everyone should do what they think works best for their situation. But I certainly have learned that a plant full of healthy, green leaves gives me the best results. But you already knew what most here would say, and you certainly don't need the "blessing" of anyone here or elsewhere to do what ever you want in your own garden. These fruit were still growing, and most ended up at around 1 lb or better:

February 9, 2016	#38
MrBig46 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Czech republic Posts: 2,541	Larger harvest per unit of cultivated area is unequivocally from the plants prořezávaných. It requires no expert, just look at how tomatoes are grown in large greenhouses. Businessmen are not fools to put more work into smaller harvest. Vladimír

February 9, 2016	#42
Ricky Shaw Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Zone 6a Denver North Metro Posts: 1,910	I think this seven paragraph synopsis by Mike Morton of Hydro-Gardens is very informative, while being understandable for the novice. He also makes some good points on snapping vs cutting, elaborates and offers this... "The plant has natural breaking points which will allow the plant to heal quicker and not leave any small remaining plant parts that will later die and allow an entry point for fungus." Still, I plan to do minimal pruning. I like baseball too. Why Should I Prune - https://hydro-gardens.com/support/f-a-q-page/

February 9, 2016	#43
Worth1 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Den of Drunken Fools Posts: 38,539	Both examples aren't a fare comparison to naturally grown plants. They are the plant equivalent of mass produced beef pigs chickens and eggs. Also look at the latitude some of the huge green houses are and where Vladimir lives. That process would work great for me if I had a greenhouse and grew in the winter. Look at the type of tomatoes they are growing too. The use of the term sucker when talking about pruning natural limbs on a tomato plant is wrong. A sucker a a basal shoot or something coming from the roots. When we hear discussion about pruning fruit trees we dont use the term sucker we say branches. These suckers are called tillers on corn.