Fertilizers for odd situation

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by Gardeneer

If it works for you that is all that matters.
What is you skipped it ? what would be the result ?

Gardeneer

The result would be no growth as I have found out in a container or two.
You cant simply go by the numbers between organic and MG or other stuff.
Don't ask me why but you get more than you think from this stuff.
For one thing it lasts longer in the soil.

Worth

[Gardeneer]

Originally Posted by Worth1

The result would be no growth as I have found out in a container or two.
You cant simply go by the numbers between organic and MG or other stuff.
Don't ask me why but you get more than you think from this stuff.
For one thing it lasts longer in the soil.

Worth

I think I a have a math problem 5-1-1
I was talking about in ground garden , not in pot.
Obviously , in a pot with soil less mix ( w/ no or very Little nutrients ) you cannot grow anything
Lot of time , some people say things that are perceptive.
Gardeneer.

[korney19]

It's expensive, but try Maxicrop Soluble seaweed POWDER, not the liquid--the liquid is a waste of money and crazy shipping costs; ebay or Amazon are the cheapest places, I think I paid $15-$17 including shipping. It's 1-0-4 and a little goes a long way. It's loaded with micronutrients. It's dark brown soluble powder. Use anywhere from a half teaspoon to a teaspoon per gallon. The powder is usually sold as a 10.7 ounce bag, but I've also bought it in bulk from Peaceful Valley by the pound I think, though I thought is was a little coarser, more like granulated garlic, that way.

Hope this helps!

[korney19]

Originally Posted by Gardeneer

I think I a have a math problem 5-1-1
I was talking about in ground garden , not in pot.
Obviously , in a pot with soil less mix ( w/ no or very Little nutrients ) you cannot grow anything
Lot of time , some people say things that are perceptive.
Gardeneer.

I grow about half of my tomatoes in 5-gallon buckets on blacktop with drip irrigation and a fertilizer injector... I use a mix of peat, compost and some of last year's mix, everything gets mixed in a cement mixer. I throw in some time released fertilizer if I have it. Miracle-Gro garden soil looks a lot like the compost I get locally.

[korney19]

Originally Posted by Worth1

The result would be no growth as I have found out in a container or two.
You cant simply go by the numbers between organic and MG or other stuff.
Don't ask me why but you get more than you think from this stuff.
For one thing it lasts longer in the soil.

Worth

Could you explain that again? I lost track of which product you were talking about. Thanks.

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by korney19

Could you explain that again? I lost track of which product you were talking about. Thanks.

I was talking about the smelly Alaska fish fertilizer.
It doesn't seem to wash out like the regular MG does.
Also someone told me here some time ago that you couldn't just compare numbers from one to the other.
I cant remember who it was but I take what they say for gospel.
At that time were were talking about the Tone products like garden tone.

With neglect my pepper plants are amazing.

[Worth1]

No fertilizer all summer and only watered twice maybe three times.
Worth
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[Cole_Robbie]

Organic fertilizers are broken down by beneficial bacteria, which accelerate nutrient uptake. Compost contains humic acid, which does the same thing. The soil I use for growing is so high in humic acid that I am unable to use cal nitrate, mg. or 4-18-38. Even with a tiny dose, like a few tbsp injected over hundreds of row feet, I get leaf curl and other symptoms of over-fertilization.

Here is a pic of fruit set this summer on one of my unfertilized plants: http://i.imgur.com/3qPeBbS.jpg

[PureHarvest]

http://www.gardenmyths.com/fish-fert...-worth-buying/

[PureHarvest]

Originally Posted by rick9748

I have been doing very heavy composting for years and latest soil test shows excessive phosphorus and calcium.What type of fertilizer would you suggest??I try to stay organic when I can.Primary crop tomatoes and other garden vegetables.
Thanks
Rick

Rick, the one thing the test does not show is usually a limiting factor: Nitrogen.
So we have to guess or go with a local info source that has come up with a recommended rate for your given crop.

The university in my area (like most) has a vegetable production guide. It will tell you how many pounds of N P and K are needed per season for each crop based on the soil types in your area. The rub is that everything is in pounds of per acre, so math conversions ensue. Containers are a whole other story.

Our soils here call for 100 lbs of N per acre. P and K are 0 to 300 depending on what a test shows as your existing levels.

So if you had a 1,000 sqft garden (something like 25x40'), that is .02 acres (1,000 sqft divided by 43,560 sqft in an acre).
So, .02 times 100 lbs of N is 2.3 lbs.
Now, there are lots of ways to go from there. The important thing to consider is, what is your total need for the season? You can then decide what form and what amount to apply when. Some apply half before planting and half later. Some apply all in the fall with manure and cover crops. Some supply a diluted amount weekly all season long.

So if your fert is 20-0-10 and you have a 50lb bag (random example), you have N of .20 times 50lb = 10 lbs of actual N in that bag. You need 2.3 lbs of N for the season. So, for every 5 pounds of that fert, you will get 1 lb of actual N.
2.3x5= 11.5 lbs of our imaginary fert for you to get enough N on your 1,000 sqft garden.
From there you can find recs on how and when to split that up.

If you are going liquid using a powdered or liquid source:

Put recommended amt into a gallon of water, say 2 tablespoons of 5-1-1 fish into a gallon. Weigh that. Let's say its 8 lbs. You have 8 lbs of fert.
8lbs of your fert times .05 = .4lbs of N.
So, putting 2 TBS of 5-1-1 into a gallon of water would supply almost a half pound of N.

Existing organic matter, previous applications of manures or compost, soil structure, temperature, moisture, permeability, and more will affect all of the suggested rates you will find from any authority. Use them as a guide until you find what seems to give you results in your given situation.

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by PureHarvest

http://www.gardenmyths.com/fish-fert...-worth-buying/

So what is your opinion on this?

I dont agree with the guy totally but I dont disagree either.
He makes too many assumptions from his ability to do things and doesn't look at other peoples abilities or points of view or reasons for doing or not doing them.

One is him laughing at the idea of the plastic square foot garden.
Though I agree with him I would never laugh at someone for using them or tell them not to.
Not everyone can just bang boards together and in my experience in life can even read a tape measuer or have anything around the house to cut boards or even be able to get boards to the house.

As for me the reason I use the fish fertilizer is I dont have access to manure and I dont do it for myself.
I use this type of stuff so I dont load the garden up with crap that runs the worms off and kills my soil.


Worth

[PureHarvest]

My opinion is use what you already have and are happy with.
If you are buying new, I'd look at cost per unit of N and see what my options were.
I like the soil building properties of manure and compost/cover crops/leaves, but also see zero problems with soluble ferts from fish or powders or granular "synthetic".
Elements are not synthetic. They are elements. When used CORRECTLY and at the CORRECT RATES, all forms of fertilizers have their place and are acceptable. I see nothing wrong with ammonium nitrate or miracle grow or Neptunes Harvest or Jacks or Peters. Use the correct rate at the right time and your soil and plants will use the elements and you will not kill worms and microbes etc and "ruin" your soil. All forms are eventually utilized in the inorganic form of N whether or not they start out there. Either man synthesized it to nitrate or the soil bacteria does it. You can harm the soil with an over application of any organic material too.
As far as environmental impact, unless you are hand spreading the manure from your own 100% grass fed animals, the organic form of manure fertilizer went through some to many handlers, processes and transportation to get to your garden, so they are not free from environmental costs. Especially manure from grain fed animals.
I would love to see the cradle to grave cost on "synthetic" ammonium nitrate vs. manure from a grain fed beef cow. Raising grains (including the harvesting of seed, field prep, spraying, harvesting and drying of the grain) and then making the feed, then transporting the feed to the beef cow, then transporting the manure can't be better because it is not a "man made" organic fertility source...
Now, the manure produced is not the primary goal of all those costs, but the primary product (grain fed meat) is a sub-par food in my opinion. Same with cottonseed meal (cotton as a fiber). Same with corn gluten meal (corn products are low nutrient and inflammatory), peanut hulls (peanut products are terrible for you), feather meal or porcine meal (grain-fed birds and pork are dangerously high in omega 6). So we are diverting the by-product of an industry to recycle nutrients, but the cost to make those products is high relative to resources used compared to the value of the primary products.
So actually, fish by products are good because wild caught fish are an excellent food/primary product (assuming the fish are responsibly caught). Interestingly enough, the fish fertilizers have the highest cost per unit of N!

I like a lot of the posts there for challenging the status quo opinions on gardening that many accept as fact and pass on (like coffee grounds acidify your soil), but agree that there is a condescending tone to anyone that dedicates their site to being a correcty correctorson.

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by PureHarvest

My opinion is use what you already have and are happy with.
If you are buying new, I'd look at cost per unit of N and see what my options were.
I like the soil building properties of manure and compost/cover crops/leaves, but also see zero problems with soluble ferts from fish or powders or granular "synthetic".
Elements are not synthetic. They are elements. When used CORRECTLY and at the CORRECT RATES, all forms of fertilizers have their place and are acceptable. I see nothing wrong with ammonium nitrate or miracle grow or Neptunes Harvest or Jacks or Peters. Use the correct rate at the right time and your soil and plants will use the elements and you will not kill worms and microbes etc and "ruin" your soil. All forms are eventually utilized in the inorganic form of N whether or not they start out there. Either man synthesized it to nitrate or the soil bacteria does it.
Unless you are hand spreading the manure from your own 100% grass fed animals, even the organic fertilizer went through some to many handlers, processes and transportation to get to your garden, so they are not free from environmental costs. Especially manure from grain fed animals. I would love to see the cradle to grave cost on "synthetic" ammonium nitrate vs. manure from a grain fed beef cow. Raising grains (including the harvesting of seed, field prep, spraying, harvesting and drying of the grain) and then making the feed, then transporting the feed to the beef cow, then transporting the manure can't be better because it is not a "man made" organic fertility source...

I like a lot of the posts there for challenging the status quo opinions on gardening that many accept as fact and pass on (like coffee grounds acidify your soil), but agree that there is a condescending tone to anyone that dedicates their site to being a correcty correctorson.

Pretty much why I have all sorts of fertilizer and not just one.

I dont consider my tomatoes ((ruined)) if I use MG on them.

Worth

[PureHarvest]

I thought you were open to all forms from past discussions Worth and appreciate your open-minded approach to fertility.
I did add to my post you quoted to give so more context to by-products.
I am not trying to judge people's food or fiber choices, but we need to consider the whole picture.
It's like the Prius owners bragging about their great fuel mileage and driving a "green car".
Yeah, you might use less fuel than me, but it takes much more out of the earth to make your car and that uses way more resources than the lower fuel mileage of my Ford. Not to mention, how is the electricity made if you have a plug-in car?

[korney19]

Originally Posted by PureHarvest

Rick, the one thing the test does not show is usually a limiting factor: Nitrogen.
So we have to guess or go with a local info source that has come up with a recommended rate for your given crop.

The university in my area (like most) has a vegetable production guide. It will tell you how many pounds of N P and K are needed per season for each crop based on the soil types in your area. The rub is that everything is in pounds of per acre, so math conversions ensue. Containers are a whole other story.

Our soils here call for 100 lbs of N per acre. P and K are 0 to 300 depending on what a test shows as your existing levels.

So if you had a 1,000 sqft garden (something like 25x40'), that is .02 acres (1,000 sqft divided by 43,560 sqft in an acre).
So, .02 times 100 lbs of N is 2.3 lbs.
Now, there are lots of ways to go from there. The important thing to consider is, what is your total need for the season? You can then decide what form and what amount to apply when. Some apply half before planting and half later. Some apply all in the fall with manure and cover crops. Some supply a diluted amount weekly all season long.

So if your fert is 20-0-10 and you have a 50lb bag (random example), you have N of .20 times 50lb = 10 lbs of actual N in that bag. You need 2.3 lbs of N for the season. So, for every 5 pounds of that fert, you will get 1 lb of actual N.
2.3x5= 11.5 lbs of our imaginary fert for you to get enough N on your 1,000 sqft garden.
From there you can find recs on how and when to split that up.

If you are going liquid using a powdered or liquid source:

Put recommended amt into a gallon of water, say 2 tablespoons of 5-1-1 fish into a gallon. Weigh that. Let's say its 8 lbs. You have 8 lbs of fert.
8lbs of your fert times .05 = .4lbs of N.
So, putting 2 TBS of 5-1-1 into a gallon of water would supply almost a half pound of N.

Existing organic matter, previous applications of manures or compost, soil structure, temperature, moisture, permeability, and more will affect all of the suggested rates you will find from any authority. Use them as a guide until you find what seems to give you results in your given situation.

Could you please explain that liquid part again, the 8lbs, 0.4lbs, 1/2 pound, etc.? What you're saying is if you need 2lbs of N and 8Tbs will provide 2lbs, that can't be correct. The 2Tbs is added to 126Tbs of H20, the gallon isn't 5-1-1, only 2/128ths is...Thanks.

EDIT:There are 256 TBS in a gallon, so 2 TBS of 5-1-1 Fish emulsion would be 2x as dilute, 2:254TBS, or is it 2:256? So only 2/256ths of the gallon are 5% N. There's no way to get almost a half pound of N fron 2TBS of 5-1-1...