To prune or not to prune? - Page 2

dustdevil · June 20, 2016

I've seen plants pruned down to a single leader with suckers removed that are loaded with fruit. It is a popular way of growing in Europe.

brownrexx · June 20, 2016

I just read an article in Mother Earth News about pruning suckers and they say that you definitely get less fruits if you prune off the suckers.

Another reason for this, besides having less flowers, is that when the temperature goes above 90 degrees tomato pollen is damaged and may not produce fruits on the main stem's flowers so if you have flowers on the suckers, then they may fruit after the temperature goes down so this contributes to more fruits too.

I also prune the bottom branches to try to prevent soil borne diseases from splashing onto the leaves.

PaulF · June 20, 2016

University extensions do not pay much attention to heirloom/OP tomatoes and their recommendations are focused on commercial growers and determinate hybrids. Their opinions are quite outdated when discussing home gardening. Most of their research was done twenty years or more ago. While they are super on most agricultural topics, growing real tomatoes is not one their strong points. They tend to voice the opinion of commercial vegetable growers.

Shapshftr · June 20, 2016

Quote:

Originally Posted by dustdevil

I've seen plants pruned down to a single leader with suckers removed that are loaded with fruit. It is a popular way of growing in Europe.

That's the way greenhouse production is done. But again, that is a massive amount of plants in a smaller space.

I agree with PaulF and brownrexx.

That said, there is a lot of variance in production from different varieties and OP vs hybrids. One year I grew all OP varieties and a friend grew 2 different hybrids. We pruned them both the same, and it was heavy pruning. My plants produced way fewer fruits. One of his hybrids varieites, (either Big Boy or Better Boy) packed on fruits by the bushel. So I leave my OP's to do what nature intended... vine out again and again, and get tomatoes on every stem. Commercial greenhouses grow hybrids, not heirlooms. So maybe that accounts for the difference.

ilex · June 20, 2016

Almost everybody in Spain prunes to single stem. In the old days it was very common to not even stake or trellis the plants and obviously no prunning.

It takes a LOT of time to prune hundreds or thousands of plants once a week. I've got better things to do.

AKmark · June 21, 2016

I have tried everything from no pruning to single stem, I now only do a single stem, I will never go back to my old habits, production is insane. I grow about a 1000 plants, and have grown several hundred varieties too.

zipcode · June 21, 2016

Quote:

Originally Posted by brownrexx

Another reason for this, besides having less flowers, is that when the temperature goes above 90 degrees tomato pollen is damaged and may not produce fruits on the main stem's flowers so if you have flowers on the suckers, then they may fruit after the temperature goes down so this contributes to more fruits too.

I don't think that's necessarily the case. Pruning to single stem absolutely increases the number of flowers per truss. It's just that the total amount that can be grown on the plant is less, since there is less plant after all.

Worth1 · June 21, 2016

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulF

As said numerous times when a pruning question arises...no pruning. BUT, the bottom branches that are in contact with the ground or mulch or may grow that direction, get pruned. Those will not affect either size nor numbers.

I love the large untrimmed plants as well. The thirty five plants in the garden have their spaces defined early...as in planting time...and they are all given four feet 6 inches from the next plant in every direction so there is no worry about whether to trim and put in a few extra plants and crowd the tomatoes together. As a home gardener, an added production of a few tomatoes is not worth the hassle. I love large tomatoes and choose varieties to achieve that goal rather than prune to get fewer but perhaps larger fruit by what, a couple of ounces? Again, not worth the effort.

Air flow is important in disease prevention and with the spacing the plants are given there has been no serious problem. Again, spacing and a good mulching program alleviates the need to prune for air flow.

So, that's the explanation for no pruning. You pruners go ahead and hack up an otherwise beautiful plant if you want, but this old fat guy won't do it.

Best answer.

Worth

oakley · June 21, 2016

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nematode

For indeterminates in the end its personal preference.

I like to put my plants close, and trellis them so lots of pruning for me, i like fussing over them and watching them grow. Also no hunting for fruits, they are all right along the one main stem. Others take a more hands off approach and let them run wild.
Neither is right or wrong.

Determinates are another matter, pruning will hurt yields.

I like this response,

Actually all of them. It is a choice and preference depending. I you have a good solid studied understanding of all methods and why they are preferred by some over another....an educated choice can be made based on space, time management, climate, length of season, etc...

I have limited space in my protected fenced garden. I plant close and prune but not heavily. A back bed with a few determinate get lots of room and left alone.
I just potted up a small tray of Scotia that will have to go out and field grown wild. I have a long row that has been covered a couple years. Gets wicked wind. May add a single thick stake. Then i'm done. Enough already.

Sit back and enjoy and watch and pick and prune a bit.

ContainerTed · June 21, 2016

I agree with PaulF. Some "experts" and some geneticists say that the energy that goes into a tomato comes from the leaf branches nearest to it. If you prune those off for ventilation, then, obviously, that tomato can't reach its full potential. Like the others who have posted above, I will trim off the parts that are in contact with the ground as a fungal prevention. But I don't always do that either. I trim those when the plant is trying to get established in the main garden, but not so much after that. There are still a lot of folks who allow the plants to sprawl which means a lot of contact with the soil. I do some of that as well.

I think that sometimes, it's all about bragging rights - who got the most from one plant - who has the prettiest - the tallest - the greenest. I'm not in it for the competition. I only mean to satisfy my own taste buds. I just think it's counter productive to have my garden in competition with someone else's garden. And there is so much variation in yields and flavors from one season to another, it's just not worth my effort to compete.

Work with what you get each season. If I need more fruit from a variety, I add a plant. If I get a bumper crop, then hooray for me. If I don't, then I live with it. If you want to butcher up your plants, then by all means, cut them deep. wide, and often. After all, they're yours to do with as you choose. Just be prepared for what mother nature allows you have after you do your pruning.

I also disagree with pinching those first flowers. I think pruning was invented by someone who wanted to display their crop for commercial or ego reasons. It all looked good, so they just told everyone how good it looked. Now, everyone wants to look good at everything they do. So, now, you have to prune to look good. It bodes the question of why we humans have to modify everything. I still firmly believe that mother nature knows how a plant should look and how many branches it should have and how many fruit of whatever size it should produce. I don't think we have the moral right to whimsically change that. After all, everyone knows that, "It's not good to mess with Mother Nature".

Nematode · June 21, 2016

"Butcher" is such a loaded term, do you "butcher" your hair or do you trim it to suit your needs?

b54red · June 21, 2016

I live a couple of hundred miles south of you in Alabama but have been to Tuscaloosa enough in the heat of summer to know you will be much better off limiting the stems and foliage to prevent disease. You need good air flow in our humidity and letting a bunch of suckers and stems form a huge bushy plant will result in diseases taking over just as the plant looks its best. I even prune determinates some in order to allow more air flow through the plant. I am growing only single stem plants this year and rarely allow more than two stems anymore. I do Missouri pruning on plants that have a more open foliage growth in order to provide more shad to fruit that might be exposed and remove all foliage below the first truss and keep removing it as the trusses higher up get picked.

If you were growing in a less disease prone area with cooler temps and lower humidity the no pruning might work but down here it is not as good a choice. If you only want to pick the maximum number of fruits the earliest for canning then I would recommend you still do some pruning but allow for 4 or 5 main stems but remove most if not all suckers. The plants will probably get diseases earlier but you should maximize your fruit production in a shorter time. I prefer to eat tomatoes for as long as possible fresh off the vine so I work to keep the vines alive for as long as possible and the ruthless pruning has allowed me to do that for the last 5 years since going to one or two stems.

It is much easier to maintain good spraying coverage on plants that don't have dense foliage and so the fungicides are more effective and pest management is easier. The number of stems you allow can also be dictated some by the support system you use. I use a drop line and tomato clips to support my mostly single stem plants and it is relatively easy but some of my plants can end up being over 20 feet long at the end of the season. When I used a lattice I would go with 3 to 5 stems until I would lose control as they just got too big to keep up with. When I used Texas tomato cages I would try to keep my plant to around 3 to 4 stems depending on the density of the variety. With stakes it was hard to keep more than 2 stems tied up and I would end up adding stakes to support extra stems and it would become a mess.

I hate to say this because your wife might be right in another area or even with determinate plants but with indeterminates you will probably get more and larger fruit with at least some pruning.

Bill

Worth1 · June 21, 2016

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nematode

"Butcher" is such a loaded term, do you "butcher" your hair or do you trim it to suit your needs?

It also gives a true butcher a bad name.
A good butcher is a true artist in their trade being able to dissect a critter down into its individual components and muscles for the very best of cuts.
And the knowledge of how to cook each cut depending on how that muscle was used.
Sadly these guys are getting harder and harder to find.

Worth

oakley · June 21, 2016

We manipulate MotherNature from the get-go by starting from seed indoors, with soilless mix as the seed has what it needs to get going, potting up deep and giving some food to help get through that month before planting with artificial light then out after hardening off.

Fields cleared of shade trees by ancestors or house contractors....mulch and mow. Weed. Mow. Water. Cover. Spray, dust. Containers above ground...

Many just give up. Encouragement and adjusting to what works and produces a good crop avoiding disease for a healthy gardening season with less frustration as it should be a therapeutic experience. Has always been my therapy.

PureHarvest · June 21, 2016

Also I think there is the distinction of what is being pruned.
It can mean removing leaves or lateral branches/suckers.
And let's not forget the a tomato has a compound leaf, so it is the long stem with all the leaflets that make up one leaf.

You just do what works for your system and space and desired result. And then you just have to walk away and not judge other peoples' choices and be condescending about it. We were given domain over the plants and animals.

A peach tree grower might prune a tree to look ugly, but it needs to be done for his purposes for an end goal.

If I want to look at beauty, I'll go to my woods, landscaped yard, or an arboretum and let him do his thing to meet his needs and goals.

June 20, 2016	#18
PaulF Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brownville, Ne Posts: 3,297	University extensions do not pay much attention to heirloom/OP tomatoes and their recommendations are focused on commercial growers and determinate hybrids. Their opinions are quite outdated when discussing home gardening. Most of their research was done twenty years or more ago. While they are super on most agricultural topics, growing real tomatoes is not one their strong points. They tend to voice the opinion of commercial vegetable growers. __________________ there's two things money can't buy; true love and home grown tomatoes.

June 21, 2016	#25
ContainerTed Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: 6a - NE Tennessee Posts: 4,538	I agree with PaulF. Some "experts" and some geneticists say that the energy that goes into a tomato comes from the leaf branches nearest to it. If you prune those off for ventilation, then, obviously, that tomato can't reach its full potential. Like the others who have posted above, I will trim off the parts that are in contact with the ground as a fungal prevention. But I don't always do that either. I trim those when the plant is trying to get established in the main garden, but not so much after that. There are still a lot of folks who allow the plants to sprawl which means a lot of contact with the soil. I do some of that as well. I think that sometimes, it's all about bragging rights - who got the most from one plant - who has the prettiest - the tallest - the greenest. I'm not in it for the competition. I only mean to satisfy my own taste buds. I just think it's counter productive to have my garden in competition with someone else's garden. And there is so much variation in yields and flavors from one season to another, it's just not worth my effort to compete. Work with what you get each season. If I need more fruit from a variety, I add a plant. If I get a bumper crop, then hooray for me. If I don't, then I live with it. If you want to butcher up your plants, then by all means, cut them deep. wide, and often. After all, they're yours to do with as you choose. Just be prepared for what mother nature allows you have after you do your pruning. I also disagree with pinching those first flowers. I think pruning was invented by someone who wanted to display their crop for commercial or ego reasons. It all looked good, so they just told everyone how good it looked. Now, everyone wants to look good at everything they do. So, now, you have to prune to look good. It bodes the question of why we humans have to modify everything. I still firmly believe that mother nature knows how a plant should look and how many branches it should have and how many fruit of whatever size it should produce. I don't think we have the moral right to whimsically change that. After all, everyone knows that, "It's not good to mess with Mother Nature". __________________ Ted ________________________ Owner & Sole Operator Of The Muddy Bucket Farm and Tomato Ranch Last edited by ContainerTed; June 21, 2016 at 12:42 PM.

June 20, 2016	#16
dustdevil Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: WI, USA Zone4 Posts: 1,887	I've seen plants pruned down to a single leader with suckers removed that are loaded with fruit. It is a popular way of growing in Europe.

June 20, 2016	#17
brownrexx Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2016 Location: Southeastern PA Posts: 1,420	I just read an article in Mother Earth News about pruning suckers and they say that you definitely get less fruits if you prune off the suckers. Another reason for this, besides having less flowers, is that when the temperature goes above 90 degrees tomato pollen is damaged and may not produce fruits on the main stem's flowers so if you have flowers on the suckers, then they may fruit after the temperature goes down so this contributes to more fruits too. I also prune the bottom branches to try to prevent soil borne diseases from splashing onto the leaves.

June 20, 2016	#20
ilex Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Spain Posts: 416	Almost everybody in Spain prunes to single stem. In the old days it was very common to not even stake or trellis the plants and obviously no prunning. It takes a LOT of time to prune hundreds or thousands of plants once a week. I've got better things to do.

June 21, 2016	#21
AKmark Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Wasilla Alaska Posts: 2,010	I have tried everything from no pruning to single stem, I now only do a single stem, I will never go back to my old habits, production is insane. I grow about a 1000 plants, and have grown several hundred varieties too.

June 21, 2016	#26
Nematode Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2012 Location: massachusetts Posts: 1,710	"Butcher" is such a loaded term, do you "butcher" your hair or do you trim it to suit your needs?

June 21, 2016	#27
b54red Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Alabama Posts: 7,068	I live a couple of hundred miles south of you in Alabama but have been to Tuscaloosa enough in the heat of summer to know you will be much better off limiting the stems and foliage to prevent disease. You need good air flow in our humidity and letting a bunch of suckers and stems form a huge bushy plant will result in diseases taking over just as the plant looks its best. I even prune determinates some in order to allow more air flow through the plant. I am growing only single stem plants this year and rarely allow more than two stems anymore. I do Missouri pruning on plants that have a more open foliage growth in order to provide more shad to fruit that might be exposed and remove all foliage below the first truss and keep removing it as the trusses higher up get picked. If you were growing in a less disease prone area with cooler temps and lower humidity the no pruning might work but down here it is not as good a choice. If you only want to pick the maximum number of fruits the earliest for canning then I would recommend you still do some pruning but allow for 4 or 5 main stems but remove most if not all suckers. The plants will probably get diseases earlier but you should maximize your fruit production in a shorter time. I prefer to eat tomatoes for as long as possible fresh off the vine so I work to keep the vines alive for as long as possible and the ruthless pruning has allowed me to do that for the last 5 years since going to one or two stems. It is much easier to maintain good spraying coverage on plants that don't have dense foliage and so the fungicides are more effective and pest management is easier. The number of stems you allow can also be dictated some by the support system you use. I use a drop line and tomato clips to support my mostly single stem plants and it is relatively easy but some of my plants can end up being over 20 feet long at the end of the season. When I used a lattice I would go with 3 to 5 stems until I would lose control as they just got too big to keep up with. When I used Texas tomato cages I would try to keep my plant to around 3 to 4 stems depending on the density of the variety. With stakes it was hard to keep more than 2 stems tied up and I would end up adding stakes to support extra stems and it would become a mess. I hate to say this because your wife might be right in another area or even with determinate plants but with indeterminates you will probably get more and larger fruit with at least some pruning. Bill

June 21, 2016	#29
oakley Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: NewYork 5a Posts: 2,303	We manipulate MotherNature from the get-go by starting from seed indoors, with soilless mix as the seed has what it needs to get going, potting up deep and giving some food to help get through that month before planting with artificial light then out after hardening off. Fields cleared of shade trees by ancestors or house contractors....mulch and mow. Weed. Mow. Water. Cover. Spray, dust. Containers above ground... Many just give up. Encouragement and adjusting to what works and produces a good crop avoiding disease for a healthy gardening season with less frustration as it should be a therapeutic experience. Has always been my therapy.

June 21, 2016	#30
PureHarvest Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Mid-Atlantic right on the line of Zone 7a and 7b Posts: 1,369	Also I think there is the distinction of what is being pruned. It can mean removing leaves or lateral branches/suckers. And let's not forget the a tomato has a compound leaf, so it is the long stem with all the leaflets that make up one leaf. You just do what works for your system and space and desired result. And then you just have to walk away and not judge other peoples' choices and be condescending about it. We were given domain over the plants and animals. A peach tree grower might prune a tree to look ugly, but it needs to be done for his purposes for an end goal. If I want to look at beauty, I'll go to my woods, landscaped yard, or an arboretum and let him do his thing to meet his needs and goals.