Seed saving disaster

[dmforcier]

As I understand it, removing the gel completely isn't completely necessary. Pepper seeds, which are rarely treated as are tom seeds, often have bits of dried placenta clinging to them, with no apparent ill effect.

Is the overall reason to remove the gel simply to make them dry more quickly?

[Cole_Robbie]

In observing family members attempting to save seeds years ago, I've seen the gel grow black mold.

[Father'sDaughter]

I believe it's also proper etiquette not to share seeds that have not been properly cleaned using your method of choice so that there less of a chance of passing on seed borne diseases.

[ContainerTed]

Originally Posted by Father'sDaughter

I believe it's also proper etiquette not to share seeds that have not been properly cleaned using your method of choice so that there less of a chance of passing on seed borne diseases.

I agree. I think that we should learn to save seeds using a procedure that most folks out here would find acceptable concerning diseases that may be on the seeds. Fermentation is usually enough to warm the heart of most folks. When I receive seeds from any other place (including commercial sellers) I do a bleach soak just prior to planting. So far, this is working fine for me. This year, I had only 2 plants out of 327 that have displayed anything to concern me. Both were in containers and were isolated from all other plants. And both were purchased from commercial sources. I told the proprietor about what I encountered and he gave me my money back. I like him. He purchased the seedlings from one of the greenhouses over in Grainger County.


I will not send out seeds to anyone unless I have confidence that those seeds come from the "cleanest" stock. This is something I work very hard at.

[StrongPlant]

Ugh,I have to ask,is there any other method to remove gel sacks than fermentation? I already lost thousands of seeds in the past month due to many of them germinating during fermentation...last year I just poured seeds into a bottle,added water,shaked hard and after straining left them to dry.But this year I can't do it like that because I have way more seeds...

[dmforcier]

Is sprouting during fermentation temperature related?

[ContainerTed]

Originally Posted by StrongPlant

Ugh,I have to ask,is there any other method to remove gel sacks than fermentation? I already lost thousands of seeds in the past month due to many of them germinating during fermentation...last year I just poured seeds into a bottle,added water,shaked hard and after straining left them to dry.But this year I can't do it like that because I have way more seeds...

How long are you holding them in the fermentation containers?? I keep mine in the house (with lids) and they are done in about 4 days at 23 degrees Celsius. Over the last 9 years, I've only encountered one incidence of sprouting in the jar and that was after 9 days at about 85 degrees F.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by dmforcier

As I understand it, removing the gel completely isn't completely necessary. Pepper seeds, which are rarely treated as are tom seeds, often have bits of dried placenta clinging to them, with no apparent ill effect.

Is the overall reason to remove the gel simply to make them dry more quickly?

Gel capsules are part of the normal life cycle of a tomato.They have a germination inhibitor,and as fruits drop to the ground or whatever,it keeps most of them from germinating when they shouldn't.

When conditions are OK for germination,like the next Spring you'll see them coming up and we call them volunteers.

Interms of deliberately saving seed I'll speak to that in a different thread here in just a bit.

Carolyn

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by dmforcier

Is sprouting during fermentation temperature related?

Yes, very much so at least the way I save seeds.

When temps are hot it may take onlyy 3-4 days for fermentation to be complete but I was usually setting up fermentations way into the Fall and sometimes it took almost a week before fermentation was complete.

Carolyn

[carolyn137]

I am fully familiar with all of the oxidative methods used,be it Oxyclean or Tom Wagner's TSP treatments,but here's how I save seeds and why.

Initially it was thought that one had to have a complex fungal mat form,composed of anything that fell into an OPEN container,since it's the VARIETYof mainly fungi that make different enzymes that break down the tomato tissue and releases the seeds.

And that's still true.

So I used one pint plastic containers, broke open the fruits with my thumb and first finger and added them to the prelabelled container until it was about half full.

Never but never did I cover the containers,so yes,I got flies laying eggs and the maggots that result,but they are easily removed.

The first thing that happens is that the upper portion of the goop is aerobic, but as the mat forms,eventually the contents become anaerobic,which you want since fermentation is an anaerobic process.

I would monitor the process by looking for gas bubbles,also a product of fermentation,that appear along the inner plasticwall. Never stir the goop since that introduces more oxygen.

You'll see two layers forming,a clear layer at the bottom and tomato debris still at the top,and see good seeds dropping to the bottom if the fermention goes well.

Then I'd sit for hours at a time,since I was growing many hundreds of plants and varieties and needed lots of seeds for my SSE listings and seed offers, and get rid of the fungal layer first, by justl lifting it off with your fingers and discarding, and then with a hose in my right hand spritz the contents,get it swirling,pour off the juice and water,repeat until only the seeds were left, tap them onto a pre labelled paper plate,non coated and let them dry in the shade,, never the sun and did so actually on the large porch of the old farmhouse,or up here where I am now, on the East side of the house on a long platform.

The reason I stayed with fermentation is that many of us tried to find the efficacy of the oxidative methods,for TOMTOES,but could find no data.Such data did exist for fermentation by a woman whoese name I've temorarily forgotten,who was at the Geneva,NY USDA station who had contract with both Campbell' and Heinz,to assess which pathogens were and which were not eiminated from the seed coat and how effective that was.

I never used any bleach treatments at all,again,no data,so can't be determined what it does,but has been used to up the germination of older seeds from time to time although I do something different for the same purpose..

No doubt I've forgotten something,so if you have any questions,please ask.

I don't know if it was in this Forum or elsewhere who asked if there is more tomato diseases around now,and I agree withthat.I was raised on a farm where we had many acres of tomatoes,and all I ever saw were Colorado Potato Beetles and BER,but didn't even know back then what BER was.My father just said to take them off and throw them in the aisle.

To give you a time perspective,I was 77 last month and was sitting atop the water tank of the plant setter when I was about 5,then moved to sitting at the plant setter as we planted the tomatoes,then spent many years hoeing and picking tomatoes to load on the flat bed trailer to haul back to the shed where they were then sorted and packed and loaded on the truck to take to the commercial market the next AM, and the gate of that market opened at 5AM.

Carolyn

[StrongPlant]

Originally Posted by ContainerTed

How long are you holding them in the fermentation containers?? I keep mine in the house (with lids) and they are done in about 4 days at 23 degrees Celsius. Over the last 9 years, I've only encountered one incidence of sprouting in the jar and that was after 9 days at about 85 degrees F.

Same,4 days,but the temperatures were a bit higher,but not above 26C...
Maybe I should't add water at all? I always add some water,but it's really a small amount...I mean,I've been fermenting lots of seeds recently and most of them don't germinate but when it happens it's a disaster,especially if the seeds are from crosses or varieties that I have little of.

[ContainerTed]

StrongPlant, I add water to almost all of my jars, but only enough to make sure the viscosity is such that the seeds can move easily about in the mixture. This allows me to readily see that seeds can fall to the bottom.

As the temperature goes up, the process goes more quickly. I've had times when the whole fermentation process has finished in only two days. I check my jars at least twice a day and swirl the contents to allow me to judge when the jar is finished. I feel that close monitoring is essential to getting a high quality product.

[Fritz77]

Hey,

while I see that the thread has stepped to a higher level (happy about that), I wanted to give you an upedate about my attempt.
I actually did manage to save something or at least I think so. Here are some pictures.
I'm very proud
Question: I noticed that some seeds have a different darker colour. Is this normal or is it because they actually got in touch with the mold that was on top?

[MissS]

Your seeds look like they came out very well. There always seem to be a few dark ones. I always dispose of them because they do not germinate very well for me.