schwarze sarah

[Scooty]

Originally Posted by swellcat

Why not?

What if it's hardy and delicious and someone would love to grow a hardy, delicious tomato . . . even if it is called "Unknown Delicious" and lacks a pre-1992 SSE pedigree?

Well there are many hardy delicious tomatoes; not just orphans.

Carolyn can probably better clearly explain her statement. However, it's clear to me (at least) she's making a distinction between something that's new ----> mutation/cross/etc... and an unlabeled (not unknown) old variety, has an existing name but is lost --> orphan.

I believe the point is that spreading the seeds can result in a situation where an unnamed variety that has an existing name eventually gets a new name. Thus, we end up with the same variety with two or more names. It only adds to more confusion down the road.

[imp]

Originally Posted by Scooty

Well there are many hardy delicious tomatoes; not just orphans.

Carolyn can probably better clearly explain her statement. However, it's clear to me (at least) she's making a distinction between something that's new ----> mutation/cross/etc... and an unlabeled (not unknown) old variety, has an existing name but is lost --> orphan.

I believe the point is that spreading the seeds can result in a situation where an unnamed variety that has an existing name eventually gets a new name. Thus, we end up with the same variety with two or more names. It only adds to more confusion down the road.

Well put! Much better than I did, LOL, tired today.

[swellcat]

I believe the point is that spreading the seeds can result in a situation where an unnamed variety that has an existing name eventually gets a new name.

Understood.

So, what if the seeds are shared sans name, just a description, say, "dark, delicious, dang-good"?

How about shared as "tomato, 2016"? Is that OK?

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by imp

Because, even if shared as an orphan, it may get passed around and then some one re-names it. It's a known tomato variety, the grower has simply not kept track of the name.

So re-naming a variety can cause confusion and a mess later down the line.

And it's not the best day for me, but this remark seemed a bit snotty or snarky to me- "even if it is called "Unknown Delicious" and lacks a pre-1992 SSE pedigree?".

Hopefully I am mistaken and you did not mean to possibly sound snarky.

Thank you imp you beat me to it in answering.

And yes,I do think the reference to a pre 1992 SSE pedigree is snarky since since listings in the Yearbooks don't establish pedigrees at all,just another way to get seeds out there to the public..

Thousands upon thousands of varieties have never been listed, and never will be, and I'm talking here primarily about family heirlooms.

When I was a listed member my main reason to list varieties was to get them out there to the public and that was and is possible since many seed vendors are SSE members. I stopped being a listed member I think two years ago,preferring to list new varieties in seed offers here as I have since 2007, and also b/c I'm 77 now and it was getting to be too much work.

I now have 7 seed producers, I source the new varieties,some are just sent to me,and three of them list many hundreds of varieties in the yearbook,so I feed them seeds,that they then produce,send some back to me for seed offers and list the rest.I also send new varieties to Glenn at Sandhill Preservation,about 40 this past Spring,also to Mike at Victory Seed, also Linda at TGS although not for the past two years,must resume that,and usually to Jeff Casey in Canada if he has room and Tania always has carte blanche to request anything I list in my seed offers.

If a variety is not grown and shared it can't exist and becomes obsolete,despite the SSE storage facilities,the USDA storage facilities in Fort Collins CO and same for almost all countries I know of who have seed banks.

Carolyn

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by swellcat

Understood.

So, what if the seeds are shared sans name, just a description, say, "dark, delicious, dang-good"?

How about shared as "tomato, 2016"? Is that OK?

I think it's time to say that we agree to disagree and I think that imp and Scooty might agree with me,but they can speak for themselves.

Carolyn

[Scooty]

Presumably, swellcat is trying to highlight the hypothetical. An unlabeled variety so good, it shouldn't be lost. ---> What if the variety so good that despite the lack of a name, though knowing it has an existing name, you want to share the tomato with friends? It's an innocent enough and well meaning to want to share those seeds. The question then becomes what if your friends end up sharing with their friends and somewhere down the line its being sold under a name other than its original, since having lost it's name it needs a new label?

Forgive me Carolyn, I can't remember the name of the seed store that you oft. cite as an example - the one which takes existing heirloom varieties, gives new names and descriptions to gussy it up, and sells them. As a gardener or farmer, you certainly would find "Superdelicious Stupendous Cold and Hot Hardy" tomato attractive. But what if it's just a Brandywine? The same Brandywine you grew last year? Does a tomato var by a different name taste any less delicious? (Very Shakespearian) No, but you certainly would have liked to have known its original name, and not invest time to grow (and pay) for a variety you presumed was one you hadn't already tried.

From my perspective, the question isn't "why can't I share this unlabeled (not unknown) heirloom?" The focus should be more on "What is this unlabeled heirloom?" People (minus Carolyn ) usually have a limited store of seeds. The number of vars they have is finite - limited places that a person shops for seeds (receipts) and trades that can be for the most part backtracked to the source. The process of elimination alone usually should be able to identify a variety to a few possibilities given enough information.

Naturally, sometimes there isn't enough information or history to backtrack an unlabeled heirloom. However, if an unlabeled heirloom is so spectacular and memorable, one would think others would be able to identify it, no?

[Gardeneer]

Originally Posted by Scooty

Presumably, swellcat is trying to highlight the hypothetical. An unlabeled variety so good, it shouldn't be lost. ---> What if the variety so good that despite the lack of a name, though knowing it has an existing name, you want to share the tomato with friends? It's an innocent enough and well meaning to want to share those seeds. The question then becomes what if your friends end up sharing with their friends and somewhere down the line its being sold under a name other than its original, since having lost it's name it needs a new label?

Forgive me Carolyn, I can't remember the name of the seed store that you oft. cite as an example - the one which takes existing heirloom varieties, gives new names and descriptions to gussy it up, and sells them. As a gardener or farmer, you certainly would find "Superdelicious Stupendous Cold and Hot Hardy" tomato attractive. But what if it's just a Brandywine? The same Brandywine you grew last year? Does a tomato var by a different name taste any less delicious? (Very Shakespearian) No, but you certainly would have liked to have known its original name, and not invest time to grow (and pay) for a variety you presumed was one you hadn't already tried.

From my perspective, the question isn't "why can't I share this unlabeled (not unknown) heirloom?" The focus should be more on "What is this unlabeled heirloom?" People (minus Carolyn ) usually have a limited store of seeds. The number of vars they have is finite - limited places that a person shops for seeds (receipts) and trades that can be for the most part backtracked to the source. The process of elimination alone usually should be able to identify a variety to a few possibilities given enough information.

Naturally, sometimes there isn't enough information or history to backtrack an unlabeled heirloom. However, if an unlabeled heirloom is so spectacular and memorable, one would think others would be able to identify it, no?

Number One : I wanted to see if anybody can narrow it it down , NOT POSITIVELY IDENTIFYING IT.
Number Two. I don't think that there are hundreds of tomatoes out there that looks like this: It was sold commercially so I am pretty sure it is a know variety.

sep 3- mystry.jpg

Look at the picture. The one in the middle is a known variety.
This tomato's description>>>
Indet, RL, dark/purple fruits , clear epidermis , stripe initiating from flutes at stem end and continuing to blossom end. The stripe/lines vanishing when tomato ripens, .... fruit size is more uniform in shape, less variation in size, ... gets green shoulder but goes away when fully ripe. .. very tasty, productive . Beat CP and IS.

Number Three: I am not offering any seeds, I am not giving it a know variety name. BUT if someone is interested in growing it, I would share seeds as UNKNOWN.

ONE MORE THING: I am growing CP, IS, BFT next to it. So I am pretty sure this is not one of them, either by plant growth habit and fruit characteristics.

[Scooty]

My apologies. My response wasn't intended or directed toward your identification request. It was more addressing the hypothetical discussion that was brought up in the last few posts by swellcat and that subsequently rolled into a new discussion.... I in no way was suggesting that you would take any specific action, either mislabeling or not labeling, sharing or not sharing. My fault for not clarifying.

Carolyn and others are far more qualified to help narrow that down. Maybe a picture of the fruit top step side, a picture of the plant, and weight measurements of the fruit might help aid her or others?

[imp]

Originally Posted by swellcat

Understood.

So, what if the seeds are shared sans name, just a description, say, "dark, delicious, dang-good"?

How about shared as "tomato, 2016"? Is that OK?

"tomato, 2016" would be a name. And, depending on how many people mis lay their labels in 2016, how many could be called "tomato, 2016"?

The problem in passing around a known/named variety without the real name, is it would get re-named- people name things to ID them, it is our nature.

So the basic problem would still exist- that the tomato in question has a REAL name, a proper name, that was "lost" or mislaid, goes on out into the world as seed and gets re-named.

Some one worked to create a tomato variety and named it, shared it, perhaps even brought it to wide spread attention of other farmers/growers. Because of a error on a growers' part, the loss of knowing which variety the tomato is, should there be a re-naming and disrespect for the person or people who did the actual work to create this variety?

Does anyone have the right to take some one else's work and change the name because they no longer know which variety they planted?

Originally Posted by Gardeneer

Number One : I wanted to see if anybody can narrow it it down , NOT POSITIVELY IDENTIFYING IT.
Number Two. I don't think that there are hundreds of tomatoes out there that looks like this: It was sold commercially so I am pretty sure it is a know variety.

Attachment 66059

Look at the picture. The one in the middle is a known variety.
This tomato's description>>>
Indet, RL, dark/purple fruits , clear epidermis , stripe initiating from flutes at stem end and continuing to blossom end. The stripe/lines vanishing when tomato ripens, .... fruit size is more uniform in shape, less variation in size, ... gets green shoulder but goes away when fully ripe. .. very tasty, productive . Beat CP and IS.

Number Three: I am not offering any seeds, I am not giving it a know variety name. BUT if someone is interested in growing it, I would share seeds as UNKNOWN.

ONE MORE THING: I am growing CP, IS, BFT next to it. So I am pretty sure this is not one of them, either by plant growth habit and fruit characteristics.

You, of course, can do as you please, no law against distributing seeds and in essence, re-naming it as "unknown".

That is your own personal choice.

I don't know if the description you have posted in the quoted post is for your "unnamed/unknown" tomato or not. If it is, you may be able to ID it from searching for those traits AND having an idea of what you planted out this year.

Losing labels happens- I would suggest a label, and a garden plan to avoid this as much as possible in the future; but that is next time, and now, you have a tomato that is not ID'ed.

If you do pass along the seeds, with all good intents, sooner or later some one will name it, and then some one's work is basically plagiarized or stolen, so to speak.

Since there is nothing but honor in your word as to the specific variety one may share with others, because there is no such thing like the DNA in dog breeders or horse breeding, it is something built on trust.

There are errors, yep, a stray seed, a mistake, those are honest mistakes, but if one grows a terrific tomato and forgets/loses the label/whatever, passes it along and says "Well, whatever, I'll just call it "No Name" then it isn't ethical.

When some one does a seed offer or trade or posts a seed being sold, there is trust that that seed is rightfully labeled and is that variety.

Originally Posted by carolyn137

I think it's time to say that we agree to disagree and I think that imp and Scooty might agree with me,but they can speak for themselves.

Carolyn

Pretty much, I don't know how to explain it any better. My flaw, though I wish I could convey the need for ethica and honor, but I am flawed, too, with poor communication.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Scooty

Presumably, swellcat is trying to highlight the hypothetical. An unlabeled variety so good, it shouldn't be lost. ---> What if the variety so good that despite the lack of a name, though knowing it has an existing name, you want to share the tomato with friends? It's an innocent enough and well meaning to want to share those seeds. The question then becomes what if your friends end up sharing with their friends and somewhere down the line its being sold under a name other than its original, since having lost it's name it needs a new label?

Forgive me Carolyn, I can't remember the name of the seed store that you oft. cite as an example - the one which takes existing heirloom varieties, gives new names and descriptions to gussy it up, and sells them. As a gardener or farmer, you certainly would find "Superdelicious Stupendous Cold and Hot Hardy" tomato attractive. But what if it's just a Brandywine? The same Brandywine you grew last year? Does a tomato var by a different name taste any less delicious? (Very Shakespearian) No, but you certainly would have liked to have known its original name, and not invest time to grow (and pay) for a variety you presumed was one you hadn't already tried.

From my perspective, the question isn't "why can't I share this unlabeled (not unknown) heirloom?" The focus should be more on "What is this unlabeled heirloom?" People (minus Carolyn ) usually have a limited store of seeds. The number of vars they have is finite - limited places that a person shops for seeds (receipts) and trades that can be for the most part backtracked to the source. The process of elimination alone usually should be able to identify a variety to a few possibilities given enough information.

Naturally, sometimes there isn't enough information or history to backtrack an unlabeled heirloom. However, if an unlabeled heirloom is so spectacular and memorable, one would think others would be able to identify it, no?

I'd be delighted to give you the name of the place where variety names were changed all the time.

First,sit back and read the thread for it in the seed and plant Forum here at Tville.

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=2441

And sit back now and enjoy reading the current Lisa site,the layout is the same the only place you can buy it,rare,etc,is the same.....and say I,just the names have been changed to protect the innocent.

http://www.amishlandseeds.com/

How well I remember when she was asked to come to Garden Web to defend herself,she did,agreed that she changed names, promised to change her ways, and went right back to what she was doing.

Craig L and I tried many times,you can read that in the first link,to help her with proper names,but she wanted no part of it since her made up names sold more seeds.

Carolyn

[Gardeneer]

Clarification :
This is not a problem of missed tag or stray seed. I bough a an OP/Heirloom tomato from store and saved seeds from it and grow it.
This was the tomato that I purchased:


Black seaman -not.jpg

As you can see what I have now is identical. It has similarities to :
== Indian Stripe
== Black Sea Man
== Sara Black.
But I know it is not IS or BSM. The latter is supposed to be determinant w/ PL.
I am also ruling out Black krim and Paul Robson. I bough few of those ar farmers market not too long ago.

I might name it " IDONO"

[Scooty]

Originally Posted by Gardeneer

Clarification :
This is not a problem of missed tag or stray seed. I bough a an OP/Heirloom tomato from store and saved seeds from it and grow it.
This was the tomato that I purchased:


Attachment 66080

As you can see what I have now is identical. It has similarities to :
== Indian Stripe
== Black Sea Man
== Sara Black.
But I know it is not IS or BSM. The latter is supposed to be determinant w/ PL.
I am also ruling out Black krim and Paul Robson. I bough few of those ar farmers market not too long ago.

I might name it " IDONO"

Umm.. I assume you bought it last year, saved seeds, and fruit is from this year? So picture is from last year or at least a few months back?

Does the same store still happen to sell them? If it does, you could check the mato for a farm sticker or ask the store if they are still sourcing from the same farm. Google farm name. The farm should be able to tell you variety.

[Gardeneer]

Originally Posted by Scooty

Umm.. I assume you bought it last year, saved seeds, and fruit is from this year? So picture is from last year or at least a few months back?

Does the same store still happen to sell them? If it does, you could check the mato for a farm sticker or ask the store if they are still sourcing from the same farm. Google farm name. The farm should be able to tell you variety.

The last picture is the fruit that I bought last year from store. The tomatoes in my first picture are harvested from the plant grown from the seeds that I planted this year.

Does the same store still happen to sell them?

Not, the sores do not sell regularly in their "Heirloom section". They are different every time, nothing consistent. I contacted the growers by email. they did not respond.

[imp]

I am going to step out of the conversation since I have nothing further to add constructively.

Hope everyone has a good weekend.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by imp

I am going to step out of the conversation since I have nothing further to add constructively.

Hope everyone has a good weekend.

Same here.

Carolyn