Is sweet sue stable?

[ContainerTed]

Scooty, I can see your point. You have this body of evidence, and you need to make some sense out of it. Fred also makes a good point. Many folks are happy to find deviations in what the tomato looks like. There are few seed sources that one can trust implicitly. Even the best suppliers are vulnerable to such things as stray seeds finding the wrong packets, unknown crosses, misidentified seeds, and everything the human mind can imagine. I made a purchase for this year and when the seeds arrived, the envelope was empty. And, mother nature can mess with us as well. I had one Sungold F1 plant this year that gave me a bunch of red fruits on one stem for about a month, then went back to normal fruit. In the other thread, the vendor indicated that the possibility of stray or misidentified seed could be the problem.

I can see you know this as you're language about checking further to investigate the problem is your first choice. I can sense that I'm stating the obvious.

Now, how can one get some of these seeds. I like anything that tastes good.

BTW, I do a Clorox rinse on any seeds I receive from any source before I plant them. It's my way of keeping my garden as clean as possible. Some years I even do seeds that I save from my own efforts.

[tash11]

Originally Posted by Barb_FL

Mine looked just like the pic Tash posted and was PL. Edited my post b/c it was from the 2014 MMMM swap.

The only other red from DWP I grew in spring of 2015 was Itidarod which was nothing like Red Sweet Sue.

Here is what it looked like cut. It was the first tomato of the 2016 spring season that I considered close to a "10".

What other's fit the description?

On the DTP site it only lists Rosella Crimson and Arctic Rose under pink. Rosella Crimson wasn't released until 2014. It is regular rugose, and the fruit are 4-13oz.
http://dwarftomatoproject.net/Rosella-Crimson.php

It's nothing like the Arctic Rose I am growing. Which is already done and much shorter. It has regular rugose leaves.
http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Dwarf_Arctic_Rose

Sweet Adelaide is also listed as pink on Tatiana's. It has regular rugose leaves. It was also released in 2014.
http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Sweet_Adelaide

[Scooty]

Originally Posted by ContainerTed

Scooty, I can see your point. You have this body of evidence, and you need to make some sense out of it. Fred also makes a good point. Many folks are happy to find deviations in what the tomato looks like. There are few seed sources that one can trust implicitly. Even the best suppliers are vulnerable to such things as stray seeds finding the wrong packets, unknown crosses, misidentified seeds, and everything the human mind can imagine. I made a purchase for this year and when the seeds arrived, the envelope was empty. And, mother nature can mess with us as well. I had one Sungold F1 plant this year that gave me a bunch of red fruits on one stem for about a month, then went back to normal fruit. In the other thread, the vendor indicated that the possibility of stray or misidentified seed could be the problem.

I can see you know this as you're language about checking further to investigate the problem is your first choice. I can sense that I'm stating the obvious.

Now, how can one get some of these seeds. I like anything that tastes good.

BTW, I do a Clorox rinse on any seeds I receive from any source before I plant them. It's my way of keeping my garden as clean as possible. Some years I even do seeds that I save from my own efforts.

I don't disagree this off Pink Sweet Sue is highly unlikely to be instability. The Sweet Sue I grew is true to form, and by all accounts, Sweet Sue is one of the most popular or at least one of the most recommended DTPs.

The thread you're referring to with my "suspect mutant" was naturally about the process of elimination. Remy had a 3 or so dwarfs grown out as possible suspects. Sophie's Choice and Mt. Princess. Waratah was also a possibility as stray seed goes. Sophie's Choice is way too short. Like 1 foot short. You can't misidentify that one. Given the last two possibilities - Mt. Princess was likely to be a candidate, but given fruit habit and foliage pattern that didn't match, it was also kind of removed as a possibility.

I think you and I both can trust Craig, as the grand puba of all things DTP and nearly most things dwarf related. I gave him a box of fruit along with a vine cutting. He saw it, held it, and ate it. If he tells me it isn't Mt. Princess, Tanunda Red or Waratah and it looks like a red Sean's Yellow Dwarf, I'll take his word for it. Again, I have no idea if it's a cross. Craig will be the one to investigate further and make the final determination.

[ContainerTed]

Scooty, you and I are definitely on the same page. Now, I'm going to bug him for some seed.

[Scooty]

Originally Posted by tash11

On the DTP site it only lists Rosella Crimson and Arctic Rose under pink. Rosella Crimson wasn't released until 2014. It is regular rugose, and the fruit are 4-13oz.
http://dwarftomatoproject.net/Rosella-Crimson.php

It's nothing like the Arctic Rose I am growing. Which is already done and much shorter. It has regular rugose leaves.
http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Dwarf_Arctic_Rose

Sweet Adelaide is also listed as pink on Tatiana's. It has regular rugose leaves. It was also released in 2014.
http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Sweet_Adelaide

Apologies tash, the discussion got sidetracked, as threads often do. You only wanted to know if Sweet Sue is stable. Ted's posts partially touches on the issue of post-harvest responsibility of seed sharing unknowns. Fred also brushes on this but is more emphasizing disease risk of trades. And I certainly didn't help by dragging my own "suspect mutant" into the thread. You only wanted to ask if Sweet Sue was stable. As far as I've heard, it's very stable.

Ideally, if you really want a near 99% identification of this "Pink Sweet Sue" or "Sweet Sue x Pink Unknown", I'd highly recommend that you contact Craig. Maybe even mail a box of fruit his way.

If you grow it out another generation or two, we'd at least be able to know if it's a cross. If not a misidentification/stray seed, it's also possible [though remote] that Barb and you actually have two different mutations. One red. One pink.

Originally Posted by ContainerTed

Scooty, you and I are definitely on the same page. Now, I'm going to bug him for some seed.

There's another thread that Carolyn weighed in on regarding the responsibility of sharing seed when you've lost the name, or an unlabeled heirloom. (Different from unknown.)

Though, my suspect mutant is not an unlabeled 'mater, it's still an unknown. The identity will be known in another grow or two. (Thank god this was a dwarf red. If it was an indeterminate, can't imagine the headache.) As such, I'm uncomfortable with sharing seed publicly if I don't have direct control. Since Craig is DTP Grand Puba, he'll be able to at least figure out how this "unknown" fits in with the collection and if it deserves to be released or if it should be destroyed.

Naturally, I don't want to create a situation where I contribute to circulating an unknown or unlabeled seed that already has been given a name.

[tash11]

Originally Posted by Scooty

Apologies tash, the discussion got sidetracked, as threads often do. You only wanted to know if Sweet Sue is stable. Ted's posts partially touches on the issue of post-harvest responsibility of seed sharing unknowns. Fred also brushes on this but is more emphasizing disease risk of trades. And I certainly didn't help by dragging my own "suspect mutant" into the thread. You only wanted to ask if Sweet Sue was stable. As far as I've heard, it's very stable.

Ideally, if you really want a near 99% identification of this "Pink Sweet Sue" or "Sweet Sue x Pink Unknown", I'd highly recommend that you contact Craig. Maybe even mail a box of fruit his way.

If you grow it out another generation or two, we'd at least be able to know if it's a cross. If not a misidentification/stray seed, it's also possible [though remote] that Barb and you actually have two different mutations. One red. One pink.

.... .

I wanted to know if there were any known mutations to narrow it down possibly. I know threads get off track sometimes and have been more then twice guilty of it myself.

I think I might have to grow it next year to see what happens. It's possible that it's a sweet sue X arctic rose. The more I look at it the more the fruit looks like AR to me. The plant is larger then AR but smaller then what I have heard sweet sue is, and it has potato leaf rugose, and my understanding is PL is recessive so this trait shouldn't be seen until F2 in that cross right?

There is also the possibility that Barb and I got seed from the same exact source, hers from 2014 MMMM swap and mine from leftover seed from that swap for the 2015 MMMM. Barb do you still have the original bag/label? However, if that is the case what is the likelihood of two plants both having the recessive traits of dwarf, potato rugose, and clear skin? I know it's not impossible, but isn't it improbable?

Originally Posted by Scooty

.....
Though, my suspect mutant is not an unlabeled 'mater, it's still an unknown. The identity will be known in another grow or two. (Thank god this was a dwarf red. If it was an indeterminate, can't imagine the headache.) As such, I'm uncomfortable with sharing seed publicly if I don't have direct control. Since Craig is DTP Grand Puba, he'll be able to at least figure out how this "unknown" fits in with the collection and if it deserves to be released or if it should be destroyed.

Naturally, I don't want to create a situation where I contribute to circulating an unknown or unlabeled seed that already has been given a name.

Yeah, I took it off my send in for the spoiler spreadsheet for MMMM this year. And I wrote a note on my send in sheet about not sending sweet sue because it turned out pink. I would only want to send seed to Craig at this point, and only if he wants it. Otherwise I will try to find a spot in my garden for it, and I will put a note on the seed I have and will collect this year.

I grew one last year that was labeled simply "orange grape" turned out to be 4oz! That's some big grape!

Save

[Scooty]

Originally Posted by tash11

I wanted to know if there were any known mutations to narrow it down possibly. I know threads get off track sometimes and have been more then twice guilty of it myself.

I think I might have to grow it next year to see what happens. It's possible that it's a sweet sue X arctic rose. The more I look at it the more the fruit looks like AR to me. The plant is larger then AR but smaller then what I have heard sweet sue is, and it has potato leaf rugose, and my understanding is PL is recessive so this trait shouldn't be seen until F2 in that cross right?

There is also the possibility that Barb and I got seed from the same exact source, hers from 2014 MMMM swap and mine from leftover seed from that swap for the 2015 MMMM. Barb do you still have the original bag/label? However, if that is the case what is the likelihood of two plants both having the recessive traits of dwarf, potato rugose, and clear skin? I know it's not impossible, but isn't it improbable?

Save

Well Barb had the unique situation that I didn't have. She had the off-type along with the correct-to-form. Her "Red Sweet Sue" grew out next to the correct one, if I recall correctly. She was able to see them grow side by side, and the only difference was basically color.

For me, Sweet Sue got tall. Like 4 feet tall. AR was short and more tree-like, just over 2 feet tall.

Well, small probability events... we're now getting into probability theory and statistics. That's a whole other subject.... Mendel was fortunate enough to be only deal with peas. I think I read that lycoperison some polygenic traits, which makes things a bit more complicated with 'maters. I'm sure Carolyn or someone else more familiar with tomato genetics could way in. Either way, everyone gets a roll of the dice, and one roll is independent from the next.

Until you and Barb, grow them out and basically eliminate other DTPs and other non-DTP dwarfs as possibilities, there's pretty much no way to know for sure. It'd certainly be really neat if you ended up both having potato leaf rugose mutations of Sweet Sue with different colors. One clear skin. One yellow skin.

[KarenO]

to go from a clear epidermis pale yellow to a red with a yellow epidermis I think really defies the odds of a spontaneous mutation and makes it far, far more likely that either a seed mixup (most likely) or an accidental cross happened in my amateur breeder opinion.
a pale yellow bicolor which imo sweet sue is due to the faint pink bottom to spontaneously produce a pink would not be an impossible genetic stretch but to produce a red I think would be astronomically unlikely.
There are also many other dwarf tomatoes that have been around for a very long time before the dwarf project releases, all comparatively very recent so to only compare this unknown tomato to dwarf project varieties is just a very small sample of possible matching tomatoes. I have an immense respect for Craig and his knowledge of the fruits of his project but I am sure he would say that even he cannot possibly visually identify every dwarf tomato that there ever was or is.
Bottom line is I don't think you can ever know but certainly to attribute this off type red to being a sport or mutation or instability of dwarf sweet Sue is a big stretch

KarenO

[Gardeneer]

Originally Posted by Fred Hempel

I think this thread is an interesting example of what happens when you have people releasing things, willy nilly, with names when they are not yet stabilized.

I am a proponent of only naming after at least F7 or F8 AND stability.

Clearly that is what the dwarf project accomplished with their lines. There should not even be a question as to whether Sweet Sue is stable. The dwarf project folks should not have to deal with questions about whether or not they released stable lines. As Ted has clearly pointed out, they knew what they were doing.

This is also a clear example of the risks involved with trading. Trades, done by amateurs with wildly different standards are always risky. If you like risk and you like surprises, trades are great! For every person ★★★★ed off about a "surprise" there are folks that are excited by them.

One last thing -- because there are typically no standards for seed hygiene in trades, you are also risking disease with trades.

I talked about this at the Heirloom Expo on Tuesday.

My suggestion was that before you plant traded seed -- if you want to reduce disease risk -- you should use a 10% bleach, organic peroxide and/or heat treatment to kill potential bacterial or viral pathogens.

It is a big, wide world of tomato growing out there, and there are diseases, known and not yet known traveling via seed. Protect your seed stash!

Good points, Fred.

[Scooty]

Originally Posted by KarenO

to go from a clear epidermis pale yellow to a red with a yellow epidermis I think really defies the odds of a spontaneous mutation and makes it far, far more likely that either a seed mixup (most likely) or an accidental cross happened in my amateur breeder opinion.
a pale yellow bicolor which imo sweet sue is due to the faint pink bottom to spontaneously produce a pink would not be an impossible genetic stretch but to produce a red I think would be astronomically unlikely.
There are also many other dwarf tomatoes that have been around for a very long time before the dwarf project releases, all comparatively very recent so to only compare this unknown tomato to dwarf project varieties is just a very small sample of possible matching tomatoes. I have an immense respect for Craig and his knowledge of the fruits of his project but I am sure he would say that even he cannot possibly visually identify every dwarf tomato that there ever was or is.
Bottom line is I don't think you can ever know but certainly to attribute this off type red to being a sport or mutation or instability of dwarf sweet Sue is a big stretch

KarenO

Presumably, whether its a cross or not would be known in future grow outs right? If one intentionally crossed a Sweet Sue with a Pink or Red, the F2, F3, etc.. the resulting plants and fruit should pop up with different types, no?

If this is a stray seed and a dwarf but not a DTP, wouldn't the list of candidates be limited? Presumably if Gary has records, I would assume the list of dwarfs shared in the annual seed swap isn't long?

I have never participated in the seed swap; so I'm unfamiliar with how many varieties ultimately get traded. I assume if you backtrack to the person supplying the seed in the swap, the list of candidates should be even shorter. I can't imagine that the stray is some obscure unplanted dwarf that hasn't been seen since some 1950s seed catalog.

Surely, the problem presented isn't trying to identify it against every dwarf that ever existed. It's identifying against all the varieties grown by the person sharing and or those dwarfs in the seed swap. I see this as a finite math problem.

Also I recalled this post by Carolyn about yellow and clear skin.

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Marsha, the epidermis genes that control the exterior color of pink varieties having a clear epidermis and red having a yellow epidermis have one of the highest rates of mutation that I've ever experienced in growing tomatoes.

It's the reason that for many years when I'd see such a mutation, a pink becoming red and the reverse, I used to save seeds of both but I NEVER distributed seeds that were not correct for the original color.

The thing here is that the mutation would have to be a double spontaneous mutation, both for skin and color. I'd be like the chances for a person to get two unrelated cancers (For the sake of the analogy, I'm assuming based on carolyn's post that they are independent and unlinked alleles). Could it happen? Sure, it can happen. Did it happen? I guess we won't know for sure until someone does the grow outs.

[KarenO]

The question is, is Dwarf Sweet Sue stable. The answer to that question is yes the dwarf sweet sue released by the dwarf project is well known to be stable.
everything else is guessing and therefore I don't think a certainty answer is possible. If people are so inclined to grow out the off types to look for the further segregation that would indicate a cross and then to grow out 10 generations to stabilize a segregant of that unknown cross then I say go for it.
I personally believe that there are a great many renamed known varieties that grew as the result of a misplaced seed and that explains some very similar OP tomatoes out there where an enthusiastic grower decided they had discovered something unique and new and gave it their own name and distributed seed to others under the new name.
There has long been disagreement here in the forums about different "strains" of the same tomato as well.
Bottom line if you are growing for yourself and your own enjoyment you can do whatever you like. When distributing seed to others that changes and expectation of doing our best to ensure true to type named varieties from healthy plants are sent.
I think TV swap participants are very good at trying to send properly identified and healthy seed. I can pretty much guarantee that's what you are getting from me anyway and I like to think most of us are of the same mind.
I do agree though that there are more and more too soon releases of unstable but already named tomatoes out there. I have been asked many times why I won't send out seed of my unstable crosses to "try" and this is why. Because they will be traded about unstable and next thing you know there will be six "new" remaned tomatoes that are actually just segregants of my breeding project. I am excited about my potato leaf heart crosses and it is very tempting to want to send them out as soon as possible but I won't send them out until they are stable for this exact reason.

I participate in and enjoy the swaps and I am aware that mistakes are more common among amateur seed savers. If pure true to type seeds of a specific variety are important to me I will choose to buy from a reputable distributor like Tatiana. I have grown out a few "mistakes", ate and enjoyed the fruit and didn't save seed becaue I knew it was not true to type.
KO

[Scooty]

I always enjoy a good puzzle or thought experiment. If the consensus is Dwarf Sweet Sue is stable, then we are left with only three possibilities - stray, cross or mutation. Presumably, we'd be able to know quite quickly if its a cross. Presumably, there are other traits beyond just fruit and skin color to assess differentiation in F2+.

But you're right that I don't think anything is a certainty. I see it as a p-interval math problem. With enough information, there should be at least a high certainly whether something is new mutation or a misplaced seed. As I understand it, this is how GGWT was released and this other heart shaped Lebanese 'mater is about to be released.

Agree on all the other points. It also belies another question. A tomato that's been grown for say 50 years. Great heirloom it may be, but growers only select on phenotype. There's nothing to say even that heirlooms that appear to have no crossing, there wasn't some genotype crossing. We could be blissfully unaware of a cross that had no phenotype alteration, if two similar but different parents were involved in the cross. If this has at least happened once, we'd be unaware and still go our way calling the heirloom the same name. In the guise of schrodingers' cat, does this deserve to be called the same name?

[tash11]

Originally Posted by Scooty

...
If this is a stray seed and a dwarf but not a DTP, wouldn't the list of candidates be limited? Presumably if Gary has records, I would assume the list of dwarfs shared in the annual seed swap isn't long?

I have never participated in the seed swap; so I'm unfamiliar with how many varieties ultimately get traded. I assume if you backtrack to the person supplying the seed in the swap, the list of candidates should be even shorter. I can't imagine that the stray is some obscure unplanted dwarf that hasn't been seen since some 1950s seed catalog. ....

Last year was my first year in MMMM, I got over 100 back. This year the spoiler spreadsheet has over 170 varieties listed, and probably lots more that people haven't posted. That is all tomatoes, not just dwarfs.
If the tag is Gary's like I think it is then that means it's either his seed, or it was sent in unbagged and he bagged it up. The '12 narrows down the year.

Originally Posted by Scooty

I always enjoy a good puzzle or thought experiment. If the consensus is Dwarf Sweet Sue is stable, then we are left with only three possibilities - stray, cross or mutation. Presumably, we'd be able to know quite quickly if its a cross. Presumably, there are other traits beyond just fruit and skin color to assess differentiation in F2+.

But you're right that I don't think anything is a certainty. I see it as a p-interval math problem. With enough information, there should be at least a high certainly whether something is new mutation or a misplaced seed. As I understand it, this is how GGWT was released and this other heart shaped Lebanese 'mater is about to be released.

Agree on all the other points. It also belies another question. A tomato that's been grown for say 50 years. Great heirloom it may be, but growers only select on phenotype. There's nothing to say even that heirlooms that appear to have no crossing, there wasn't some genotype crossing. We could be blissfully unaware of a cross that had no phenotype alteration, if two similar but different parents were involved in the cross. If this has at least happened once, we'd be unaware and still go our way calling the heirloom the same name. In the guise of schrodingers' cat, does this deserve to be called the same name?

I love a good puzzle too. That's why I posted rather then just throwing the seed out. I probably could have come up with a better thread title, but I was tired and in a rush.

I don't think that the one I have fits any other DTP releases, but that doesn't eliminate other dwarfs.

I will try to find room to grow out as many as I can of this seed next year. I am limited mostly on my ability to keep weeds at bay. And on the fact that I want to grow actual true to type varieties. It may only be one or two of this odd one that make it in the garden. I will get some people to taste test it soon, and take a brix.

If anyone is in central/north central Ohio and would like to taste it LMK.

[Barb_FL]

Tash - Have you tasted it yet? Mine was so dynamite that is why I'm growing again.

Ted - I agree with you that SS is stable. I am only using the RED as an adjective not a name changer. I would never pass on these seeds.

Scooty/Tash - I checked my source from 2014 MMMM and it was definitely NOT Gary's. The donor was generous with the count and included with the name - Unbagged. I still have seeds left.

So from my original '15 MMMM swap source - I grew out 2 plants in S'15- 1 produced yellow, the other red or pink.

Saved limited seed from the red/pink and grew again in S'16. Produced red/pink

Saved limited seed from S'16 and am growing now for F'16. Hopefully will know something around December.

[ContainerTed]

Barb, there are so many hard working folks around the world who have put so much effort into the Dwarf Project, that I had to make sure we weren't diminishing them with our discussion. I grow all the ones I did the release seed on almost every year. This is not just for checking the health of the variety, but also to maintain somewhat of a gold standard to compare everything to. I have seeds left over from the original release and I grow them about every three years.

Everyone here in this discussion has made good decisions about what not to share. Thanks to all who are showing great control of the suspect seeds. After all, Dwarf Sweet Sue is named after Craig's DW. We really gotta be careful with this one.