NY Times "Vintage Seeds vs Hybrids" story - Page 2

fortyonenorth · March 29, 2011

In 1995, I had the good fortune to travel to Heronswood with a group organized by Horticulture Magazine. We spend several days there with Dan and Robert and they accompanied us to several other excellent gardens in the PNW. I was young at the time and had, ahem..., a bit too much to drink one night at dinner. The several times I saw Dan after that, he'd say "you look really familiar..." and I'd reply - "yeah, I was the guy who got drunk...." - sparking immediate recognition.

habitat_gardener · March 29, 2011

I'd been wondering what happened with Heronswood. According to the Open Garden listing

http://www.gardenconservancy.org/ope...758-heronswood

they never sold it and it's been a "research garden" for Burpee.

Fusion_power · April 1, 2011

I see a huge amount of interest in improved disease tolerance from the NorthEastern U.S. triggered by recent losses to late blight. For this reason, I am growing and selecting from some advanced generation plants derived from Randy Gardner's lines. Genetic tolerance is a big improvement over spraying with chemicals to control disease.

Randy has crossed a pink line with late blight and early blight tolerance with Eva Purple Ball and is sending me seed to grow later this year. I plan on advancing them to the F2 and selecting for the most disease free plants in my garden. With a few years work, I hope to see a tomato that tolerates septoria, early blight, and late blight and has decent flavor. It would be a major improvement on anything we have available today.

Carolyn, I don't have any interest in having two versions of the same variety floating around. New names would be required. We are talking about new varieties after all.

Re George Ball, his hybrid bias is much more mundane than proposed above. Heirlooms are not very profitable compared to hybrids. He makes more money on hybrids because new seed are required vs heirlooms where you can save seed.

DarJones

**carolyn137** · April 1, 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fusion_power

I see a huge amount of interest in improved disease tolerance from the NorthEastern U.S. triggered by recent losses to late blight. For this reason, I am growing and selecting from some advanced generation plants derived from Randy Gardner's lines. Genetic tolerance is a big improvement over spraying with chemicals to control disease.

Randy has crossed a pink line with late blight and early blight tolerance with Eva Purple Ball and is sending me seed to grow later this year. I plan on advancing them to the F2 and selecting for the most disease free plants in my garden. With a few years work, I hope to see a tomato that tolerates septoria, early blight, and late blight and has decent flavor. It would be a major improvement on anything we have available today.

Carolyn, I don't have any interest in having two versions of the same variety floating around. New names would be required. We are talking about new varieties after all.

Re George Ball, his hybrid bias is much more mundane than proposed above. Heirlooms are not very profitable compared to hybrids. He makes more money on hybrids because new seed are required vs heirlooms where you can save seed.

DarJones

Darrel, glad to hear no two versions of the same variety.

And I know several folks who are using primarily Mountain Magic F1 over Plum Regal F1 to try and introduce some of Randy's tolerance genes in those two varieties, which I think is great.

last year I had four of Randy's not yet released ones out there and I'd have to check but I think one did have Eva Purple Ball in the parentage. I juat checked and nope, different parentages for the four new ones. The sad thing is it was such a lousy year that I got no fruits at all. I know one also had the bicolor Mr Stripey in the parentage and I gave Randy a hard time about that one.

So I wish you and all the others working on new varieties with increased tolerances to some of the nastier diseases good speed and good luck.

And I'll even cut a deal with you, and now not related to the above. Send me some seeds of Tastiheart, the red PL, and I'll send you some seeds of my Kukla's Portuguese Heart, also a red PL, but a natural one. And I'm cutting the same deal with Adam to get the red PL heart he's listing, also a natural one. I am growing Heshpole this year and I can't wait to see what folks are going to get with those Kardia Karpas seeds that Gary ( Tormato) donated and so far those who have reported back have gotten all PL seedlings.

Can I help it if I'm a heart lover?

WVTomatoMan · April 1, 2011

A friend sent me a link to that article and asked me what I thought. Here's my reply to her:

I hardly know where to begin. I'll start picking it apart, well because I like doing that sort of thing.

Starting on page one and good old Mr. Johnston of Johnny's Selected Seeds, who by the way will most probably not see any business from me. He uses the example of a 1936 Oldsmobile coupe to provide the analogy that modern and new is better than antique and old. Well, I wonder what the red wine connoisseurs would say if you suggested that they only drink new freshly made wine. Apples to oranges? Isn't seeds to cars just as big a stretch? The bottom line is new does not mean better.

Quoting from the article: "Modern seeds, which are generally hybrid crosses, produce a “more vigorous plant, better resistance to diseases,” he said. And here’s the heirloom heresy: they often taste better, too." I'm impressed that the individual was able to produce that much fallacy using so few words.

To give credit to the Mr. Tortorello, the author of the article, he goes on to say that heirloom seed buyers rebut some or all of the claims. However, it seems like more of a passing thought than an actual rebuttal.

Next comes our illustrious Mr. Ball of Burpee. He said, “Heirlooms were varieties that were so unsuccessful that they wouldn’t be sold today”. Then why do you sell so many heirlooms Mr. Ball? Why would you even carry Black Beauty? Why didn't you produce a new and better eggplant than that old Black Beauty that was first listed in Burpee's 1903 catalog? I quoted that statement because it is so preposterous as to be unbelievable.

Okey dokey I'll stop there. I've had my fun and there's more fun to be had, but I'm tired.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I kept my sarcasm mostly in check.

I did have these questions:
In the article it states that modern hybrid tomatoes are typically determinate. I don't know if that's true or not. It seemed like there are just as many if not more indeterminates, but maybe that's because I tend to grow and therefore pay more attention to indeterminates.

The article also makes reference to "greener than thou" gardeners. Most gardeners I know grow OP and hybids every year, just like me. So where are these "greener than thou" type people?

Dr. Heisey says that a well-bred hybrid, properly ripened hybrid will taste as good or better than heirloom tomatoes. If hybrids tasted better than heirlooms I'd grow nothing but hybrids, but they don't. I can only assume he's banking on most people want to try heirlooms because it's the current "in" thing. With that kind of logic I'm surprised he was able to obtain his doctorate.

A lot of this is tongue in cheek. What I'd really like to do is tear into certain "experts" no holds barred. That could be some real fun. Just in case I go that way an idiot is dumber than a moron right? I want to get my terminology correct for when discussing Mr. "behind the 8" Ball.

Randy

ddsack · April 1, 2011

Right on, Randy!

And if "Heirlooms were varieties that were so unsuccessful that they wouldn’t be sold today" - then why, oh why, are we still putting up threads looking for that elusive old time tomato taste that so many of us remember so well?

WVTomatoMan · April 1, 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fusion_power

...Heirlooms are not very profitable compared to hybrids. He makes more money on hybrids because new seed are required vs heirlooms where you can save seed.

DarJones

No offense, but are you sure about that? It seems counter intuitive. Performing crosses to get hybrid seed is such a labor intensive activity that most hybrid creations have been outsourced and are done over seas. Heirloom costs seem much lower and therefore would be more profitable. With Burpee's resources they can use isolation so they don't have to bag. Keep in mind many people buy seed from year to year rather than saving seeds themselves. Look at the old seed catalog business. They made money and before 1949 everything was OP. And it was in an era when people were more likely to do things themselves.

Randy

WVTomatoMan · April 1, 2011

Quote:

Originally Posted by ddsack

Right on, Randy!

And if "Heirlooms were varieties that were so unsuccessful that they wouldn’t be sold today" - then why, oh why, are we still putting up threads looking for that elusive old time tomato taste that so many of us remember so well?

Many times I've had someone taste one of my heirloom tomatoes, and their eyes light up and they go on to say that tastes just like the tomatoes that my grandfather (or other relative) used to grow. I've had dozens of people tell me after trying one of my favorite heirlooms, that they just ate the best tasting tomato they've ever had. I suspect many heirloom tomato growers have experienced the same reaction from people.

Randy

rsg2001 · April 2, 2011

Randy, I have had that experience, too. I have a small space for gardening (plus use containers on my deck). The years I have a bumper crop (not always) I bring a sampling to the office and people swoon over the flavor. I grow a mix of heirloom, OP and hybrids, though fewer hybrids than years ago. of the 15 types I just started seeds for, just 3 are hybrids.

April 1, 2011	#20
WVTomatoMan Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: West Virginia - Zone 6 Posts: 594	A friend sent me a link to that article and asked me what I thought. Here's my reply to her: I hardly know where to begin. I'll start picking it apart, well because I like doing that sort of thing. Starting on page one and good old Mr. Johnston of Johnny's Selected Seeds, who by the way will most probably not see any business from me. He uses the example of a 1936 Oldsmobile coupe to provide the analogy that modern and new is better than antique and old. Well, I wonder what the red wine connoisseurs would say if you suggested that they only drink new freshly made wine. Apples to oranges? Isn't seeds to cars just as big a stretch? The bottom line is new does not mean better. Quoting from the article: "Modern seeds, which are generally hybrid crosses, produce a “more vigorous plant, better resistance to diseases,” he said. And here’s the heirloom heresy: they often taste better, too." I'm impressed that the individual was able to produce that much fallacy using so few words. To give credit to the Mr. Tortorello, the author of the article, he goes on to say that heirloom seed buyers rebut some or all of the claims. However, it seems like more of a passing thought than an actual rebuttal. Next comes our illustrious Mr. Ball of Burpee. He said, “Heirlooms were varieties that were so unsuccessful that they wouldn’t be sold today”. Then why do you sell so many heirlooms Mr. Ball? Why would you even carry Black Beauty? Why didn't you produce a new and better eggplant than that old Black Beauty that was first listed in Burpee's 1903 catalog? I quoted that statement because it is so preposterous as to be unbelievable. Okey dokey I'll stop there. I've had my fun and there's more fun to be had, but I'm tired. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ I kept my sarcasm mostly in check. I did have these questions: In the article it states that modern hybrid tomatoes are typically determinate. I don't know if that's true or not. It seemed like there are just as many if not more indeterminates, but maybe that's because I tend to grow and therefore pay more attention to indeterminates. The article also makes reference to "greener than thou" gardeners. Most gardeners I know grow OP and hybids every year, just like me. So where are these "greener than thou" type people? Dr. Heisey says that a well-bred hybrid, properly ripened hybrid will taste as good or better than heirloom tomatoes. If hybrids tasted better than heirlooms I'd grow nothing but hybrids, but they don't. I can only assume he's banking on most people want to try heirlooms because it's the current "in" thing. With that kind of logic I'm surprised he was able to obtain his doctorate. A lot of this is tongue in cheek. What I'd really like to do is tear into certain "experts" no holds barred. That could be some real fun. Just in case I go that way an idiot is dumber than a moron right? I want to get my terminology correct for when discussing Mr. "behind the 8" Ball. Randy Last edited by WVTomatoMan; April 1, 2011 at 04:53 PM. Reason: Corrected a typo. I almost misspelled typo.

April 1, 2011	#21
ddsack Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Northern Minnesota - zone 3 Posts: 3,231	Right on, Randy! And if "Heirlooms were varieties that were so unsuccessful that they wouldn’t be sold today" - then why, oh why, are we still putting up threads looking for that elusive old time tomato taste that so many of us remember so well? __________________ Dee **************

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March 29, 2011	#16
fortyonenorth Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: NW Indiana Posts: 1,150	In 1995, I had the good fortune to travel to Heronswood with a group organized by Horticulture Magazine. We spend several days there with Dan and Robert and they accompanied us to several other excellent gardens in the PNW. I was young at the time and had, ahem..., a bit too much to drink one night at dinner. The several times I saw Dan after that, he'd say "you look really familiar..." and I'd reply - "yeah, I was the guy who got drunk...." - sparking immediate recognition.

March 29, 2011	#17
habitat_gardener Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: California Central Valley Posts: 2,543	I'd been wondering what happened with Heronswood. According to the Open Garden listing http://www.gardenconservancy.org/ope...758-heronswood they never sold it and it's been a "research garden" for Burpee.

April 1, 2011	#18
Fusion_power Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Alabama Posts: 2,250	I see a huge amount of interest in improved disease tolerance from the NorthEastern U.S. triggered by recent losses to late blight. For this reason, I am growing and selecting from some advanced generation plants derived from Randy Gardner's lines. Genetic tolerance is a big improvement over spraying with chemicals to control disease. Randy has crossed a pink line with late blight and early blight tolerance with Eva Purple Ball and is sending me seed to grow later this year. I plan on advancing them to the F2 and selecting for the most disease free plants in my garden. With a few years work, I hope to see a tomato that tolerates septoria, early blight, and late blight and has decent flavor. It would be a major improvement on anything we have available today. Carolyn, I don't have any interest in having two versions of the same variety floating around. New names would be required. We are talking about new varieties after all. Re George Ball, his hybrid bias is much more mundane than proposed above. Heirlooms are not very profitable compared to hybrids. He makes more money on hybrids because new seed are required vs heirlooms where you can save seed. DarJones

April 2, 2011	#24
rsg2001 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New York Zone 6 Posts: 479	Randy, I have had that experience, too. I have a small space for gardening (plus use containers on my deck). The years I have a bumper crop (not always) I bring a sampling to the office and people swoon over the flavor. I grow a mix of heirloom, OP and hybrids, though fewer hybrids than years ago. of the 15 types I just started seeds for, just 3 are hybrids.