Cleaning and/or sterilizing trays etc.

[swamper]

elizabeth, you can use soapy water in my opinion without risk.

i dont see the need to be sterile, and i think the safety issues of bleach, and ammonia for that matter, are not appreciated by most. hydrogen peroxide is a safer alternative, but probably not necessary.

[tjg911]

thanks carolyn.

it sounds like cleaning all these containers is not really necessary. the washing of all the containers used by all plants is tedious as there are quite a few.

i also spray my crw cages and rebar stakes with a 25% not 10% bleach solution about 5/24, a week before planting out. spraying 8 or 9 cages and 16 or 18 rebar stakes also is time consuming, dragging them out on the driveway, setting them up, spraying them, waiting for them to dry, cleaning out the sprayer, then putting the cages and stakes off to the side waiting for memorial day, i'd prefer to not have to do this. i never did until the spring after the summer of late blight but that summer prompted me to clean my cages and stakes... just in case it helped.

so i'd be more than happy to not do all this cleaning!

tom

[LuvsToPlant]

If your prone to have diseases...

A little prevention is worth much more than paying for the cure...
The cure isn't worth the trouble...if you can prevent it.

[carolyn137]

i never did until the spring after the summer of late blight but that summer prompted me to clean my cages and stakes... just in case it helped.

******

I can understand Tom.

But the spores of Late Blight (P. infestans) can only remain viable on living tissue so once any LB infected plants die, that's it b'c we don't have any plants that can live outside during our winters.

One problem we have here in NYS and other places here in the NE is where lots of potatoes are grown b'c LB can remain inside potatoes that are in cull piles and that's been the source of LB in the past.

There are two mating types of LB and where both mating types are present sexual oospores can form and those can overwinter but here in the NE we have only the one mating type. In the PNW in many places they have both,

And it isn't just that oosproes can form and overwinter in the PNW it's that new strains of LB can and have formed and that has meant that differences in terms of the products that commercial farmers have access to in those areas can become less effective as new strains appear.

So with no serious systemic disease problems where we both live and the fact that foliar bacterial pathogens are in the endosperm of the seed and thus can't be reduced or eliminated by any surface agents used for treatment I and many others I know don't worry that much except for the common fungal foliar pathogens Early Blight (A. solani) and Septoria Leaf Spot and as I said above, a good anti-fungal has been shown to be quite effective in helping to prevent those fungal foliar pathogens. If Bacterial Speck and/or Spot appear then a copper containing product such as Kocide or similar can be used or a couple of other products can be used as well, and I say a couple of others b'c there are some who appear to be concerned about copper build up in the environment as well And where I live the commercial folks and many home gardeners opt to use Daconil although the commercial folks use Bravo, just a higher concentration of the standard 29.6% Daconil sold for hobby growers as a concentrate.

Just get on a regular spray schedule as soon as the plants are set out.

I'm sure Daconil ( chlorothalonil) is discussed in the organic forum here so I'll say not much; it is synthetic but has less toxicity than does Rotenone, which is organic and is approved by almost all organic certifying agencies I know of. In addition, Daconil can be applied up to the day of harvest which tells you it has little residual as well as potential toxicity.

My own personal philosphy is that I don't care if a product is organic or synthetic. What I care about is toxicity to humans and pets and bees and fish and the larger environmental impact in general.

But in the end the choice is yours alone. You might want to take a look at the several excellent links to Cornell via Google concerning Late Blight and tomato diseases in geneneral, if you want more infirmation. And I do think the one general link is in the Pest and Disease Forum here at Tville already, which has links within it for various diseases and treatments where organic and synthetic products are discussed and evaluated.

[tjg911]

thanks carolyn.

yes, i knew that LB isn't supposed to over winter on cages and stakes but i was so concerned i figured it couldn't hurt so i started to spray them. i will be very happy to not do it this year since it does not sound like it is of any real value re LB or anything else we have here.

now my real concern was the 6 packs and yogurt cups and 1/2 gallon pots that seedlings are in. these are taken to the garden and are placed on the ground. my assumption was they were capable of transmitting something, anything (?), when those planters were used again and they are over and over as i have successive plantings of many different vegetables from spring thru mid summer. since i use promix and it is sterilized i figured why risk diseases from the ground when those planters are placed on the ground and then tossed aside as they are emptied and blown around by the wind, it seemed like a lot of contact with the soil especially since i continue to seed other things using them again and again. so i will be more than happy to not go thru the rigmarole come late august of washing all these containers.

tom

[LuvsToPlant]

tjg911...
I know you refered to Carolyn...
...but since this is a public forum...thought I would add.
Hope you don't mind.

As I mentioned above...prevention is always the best.
Thats what I teach in my classes.
Cleaning up the garden in the fall, disenfecting tools and the such.
...although if you have not had a problem with any plant diseases
that easily transmits...you probably could get by without sterilizing
yours pots and trays.
To me it is not a big chore...I stack all trays and pots/6 packs and just submerge
into a bucket of solution...and let sit 30 minutes or so...then air dry.

I have before not soaked the pots...and crossed my fingers many times.
But then again...I am working with 10,000 pots times 15 100 foot greenhouses.
Now tHaTs alot of work.....

If you keep a clean enviroment...your chances are better.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by LuvsToPlant

tjg911...
I know you refered to Carolyn...
...but since this is a public forum...thought I would add.
Hope you don't mind.

As I mentioned above...prevention is always the best.
Thats what I teach in my classes.
Cleaning up the garden in the fall, disenfecting tools and the such.
...although if you have not had a problem with any plant diseases
that easily transmits...you probably could get by without sterilizing
yours pots and trays.
To me it is not a big chore...I stack all trays and pots/6 packs and just submerge
into a bucket of solution...and let sit 30 minutes or so...then air dry.

I have before not soaked the pots...and crossed my fingers many times.
But then again...I am working with 10,000 pots times 15 100 foot greenhouses.
Now tHaTs alot of work.....

If you keep a clean enviroment...your chances are better.

I think it is much more important for those of you who are commercial, as you are, to be more cautious. And in my post above I wrote:

(My commercial friend Charlie used new inserts every year and his seed sowing system was a mechanical one that none of us would have.)

And I could have added new pots and almost everything else new; he doesn't recycle and treat anything. He has 28 greenhouses and raises not just tomatoes and other veggies but also lots and lots of annuals. And once something in the way of disease gets going in such closed environments it can really be bad, as well you know. He's getting in plug trays from several places as I'm sure you are as well, for the flowers especially, so again, he's very cautious.

But Tom is not commercial, nor are most of the folks who post here which I think is a somewhat different story, if you will.

And continually in each post to Tom I've said the choice is his as to how he wants to proceed. I can only express my own experience and those include several commercial friends like Charlie as well as many many home hobby growers and the latter since I started reading/posting online in about 1982 as well as being raised on a farm and being up close and personal with what we're talking about here since I was maybe 5-7 years old . But thinking back to those times there simply wasn't the tomato and other veggie and flower diseases we have today. My maternal grandparents had the largest nursery in the tri-city area of Albany/ Schenectady/Troy for many years and I worked there many summers and so learned a lot from those experiences as well.

OK, a wee confession. There were always plants left in the greenhouses and at the end of the planting season would be left there to die. But I'd go in there and try to revive them with water and my Aunt Pearl would just shake her head and laugh. Another memory was taking cuttings for new geraniums from the huge plants that were in a special all year greenhouse and then my grandfather was the first to raise Geraniums from seed in the area as well, and that was great fun when the public saw all the new colors and leaf forms that they'd never seen before.

Sorry for the trips back through memory lane but we older folks sometimes do that.

And for many years all my tomato seedlings were grown in Charlie's greenhouse #19 in front of the large exhaust fan,, so I had a personal stake in disease free greenhouses.

But once tomato plants, the subject here, are planted outside it really is a different story as to the tomato pathogens they're exposed to and that differs from year to year and actually region to region with regard to both foliar as well as possible systemic soilborne diseases.

Summary? Commercial folks such as yourself do need to be more cautious about disease concerns, no doubt about it. But I think less so for those who are not commercial for the reasons I've outlined in several posts here, but again, it's up to each non-commercial person as to what they wish to do and why, with tomato plants, and also their ability to be able to ID tomato diseases when they appear so that they have a game plan for that season and future seasons.

[kurt]

Originally Posted by tjg911

thanks carolyn.

yes, i knew that LB isn't supposed to over winter on cages and stakes but i was so concerned i figured it couldn't hurt so i started to spray them. i will be very happy to not do it this year since it does not sound like it is of any real value re LB or anything else we have here.

now my real concern was the 6 packs and yogurt cups and 1/2 gallon pots that seedlings are in. these are taken to the garden and are placed on the ground. my assumption was they were capable of transmitting something, anything (?), when those planters were used again and they are over and over as i have successive plantings of many different vegetables from spring thru mid summer. since i use promix and it is sterilized i figured why risk diseases from the ground when those planters are placed on the ground and then tossed aside as they are emptied and blown around by the wind, it seemed like a lot of contact with the soil especially since i continue to seed other things using them again and again. so i will be more than happy to not go thru the rigmarole come late august of washing all these containers.

tom

Kurt here.My thinking is when I stack the pots in each other thats when the problem might start.Moisture can gather in the stack.After the season all my rootballs are shaken off into a wheel barrow and scattered on the sod.I will nuke them then and again before transplant.So far I have not had any reoccurrence of the problems when I first started.Also getting a good seed source from the start helps.I will not save any seeds from any weak or infected looking plants,So far for the last 5 years have not bought any more seeds just sticking to my main producers and happy with that.Tried to grow too many varietys over the years any found out it takes time for plants(varietys) to acclimize to my enviorment down here in South Florida(land race?)Some of the diseases found out are transplanted in the actual seed as C137 mentioned in other posts.For instance I quit growing the larger determinate exotic maters I keep seeing and drooing over.Just Imagine today we are supposed to get 80-85 degrees in temperature,humidity at 60-70,no bees,no butterflys,a real pain the butt to create a good enviorment down here.Imagine I take my vacations in the winter and go to Colorado or somewhere to get away from this heat and humidity while the northeners flock here to Miami,Go figure.Have fun and good luck growing.

[ddsack]

I am happy to agree with Carolyn in this, not the least of which is because I now have her benediction in continuing my lazy, dirty ways.

Unless you have previously had some kind of disease in your seedling trays, I don't really see the value of sterilizing them. I've never had serious problems in my trays, or after the first potting up -- all my diseases arrive out in the garden during mid-summer humidity. I say "serious" - because some wispy's will always get CRUD as small plants under lights, regardless of using new cells or not, and they outgrow it as soon as they are planted outside.

I buy Metro Mix or ReadiEarth seed starter mix, but I have open bags of the stuff laying around all year. I don't think you can really call the stuff truly sterile when air borne particles can hop in at will. And there's no way I'm going to boil water or microwave or oven cook the stuff before using it.

Plants evolved living in dirt and growing in rotted material. It makes sense that there are germs and bacteria everywhere in the natural environment. I know you can't directly compare human antibodies with plants, but might it theoretically be possible that a sterile environment without exposure to minute amounts of bacteria/spores/etc while young, might harm disease resisting capabilities in mature plants?

I think everyone should do as feels right to them. If you are a clean freak and would worry if you didn't bleach, then for sure you should bleach. If I actually had experienced disease problems with certain trays or pots, then yes, I would either bleach or discard them.

I think advertising in our culture is training us to be obsessive about germs in our homes and surroundings beyond a reasonable level. Some researchers think there is a link between too much cleanliness and the huge rise in allergies in children. Plants are meant to thrive in dirty ol' dirt, with all it's rotted down organic matter and who knows what all kind of germy spores are in there. They might as well get used to it as babies!

I guess that makes me a mean mother ...

[tam91]

I have washed trays off, but would be delighted to skip the bleach step.

Carolyn, I did have that "crud" in the greenhouse. Whatever that is, can I presume that just washing trays off is sufficient? It actually wasn't in the seed starting inserts themself (they stayed in the house), but I probably had some of the trays in the greenhouse.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by tam91

I have washed trays off, but would be delighted to skip the bleach step.

Carolyn, I did have that "crud" in the greenhouse. Whatever that is, can I presume that just washing trays off is sufficient? It actually wasn't in the seed starting inserts themself (they stayed in the house), but I probably had some of the trays in the greenhouse.

Tam, I don't know if I can give you a clear answer to your question, but I'll try.

You might remember that I've posted that many years ago I saw the brown edges of leaves on seedlings that I had in my falling down greenhouse which had no windows left, but good bench space. It would spread to nearby plants so I'd take off all affected foliage, leaving just the top foliage and isolate those plants.

I never saw it on newly germinated seedlings inside and only when they were exposed to outside air. So I contacted Dr. Tom Zitter at Cornell who is a well know tomato infectious disease specialist and he ASAP said he thought he knew what was going on. He suggested that it was an aberrant form of Early Blight ( A. solani) but they had yet to be able to isolate anything, and that's the last I knew of it.

When the affected plants were set out in the field they were just fine and never suffered from what I dubbed as CRUD all those many years ago.

CRUD seems to affect mainly heart varieties but some others as well such as Kellogg's Breakfast.

My strong feeling is that whatever causes CRUD is airborne and/or in rain, so I can't think that disinfecting any trays or inserts will prevent CRUD. And like me, you see it primarily in your greenhouse, but I bet yours wasn't the falling down kind that I used.

I used to love it in there. Birch trees had grown up where the windows were, my mothers cat Bootsie would come and curl up on the bench with me, the sunlight filtering through the young birch leaves was just beautiful and it was so quiet and peaceful in there. It's where I'd label and separate out all the transplants. When I did the initial transplants I might plant 8 of one kind in a row with only the label in front of the first one, so I had to add labels to all of those that were in rows with just one label.

Most were for me to put out in the field but at that time I had many folks who would stop by to pick up their plants, no, I didn't sell them, so I'd pretty much have several trays with labelled ones for different folks.

[tam91]

Thank you Carolyn. As you assured me before, my plants survived the greenhouse 'CRUD' just fine, and thrived once planted. I wasn't so much concerned with preventing a recurrance - it's just that I didn't want the little tiny baby seedlings to get it, as they wouldn't have leaves to spare. But it sounds like it's unlikely.

Your greenhouse sounds just wonderful, I would love to spend time somewhere like that. Mine is just a small temporary one that I erect on the deck, until it's time for planting, then it comes down. And like you, I had some trays with people's names on them - giving the plants away is a wonderful feeling, both to introduce people to heirloom tomatoes, and just the pleasure of giving something. If I end up with too many extras I might sell some this year (after supplying all my friends), we'll see.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by tam91

Thank you Carolyn. As you assured me before, my plants survived the greenhouse 'CRUD' just fine, and thrived once planted. I wasn't so much concerned with preventing a recurrance - it's just that I didn't want the little tiny baby seedlings to get it, as they wouldn't have leaves to spare. But it sounds like it's unlikely.

Your greenhouse sounds just wonderful, I would love to spend time somewhere like that. Mine is just a small temporary one that I erect on the deck, until it's time for planting, then it comes down. And like you, I had some trays with people's names on them - giving the plants away is a wonderful feeling, both to introduce people to heirloom tomatoes, and just the pleasure of giving something. If I end up with too many extras I might sell some this year (after supplying all my friends), we'll see.

Tam, I used that falling down greenhouse from about 1983, after I'd moved back East from Denver to take care of my aging ailing parents to the early 90's and in the early 90's Charlie, my commercial friend asked if he could use the farm since my father had parkinson's and could no longer farm. We said of course and when Charlie saw what I was doing he asked if I wanted to sow the seeds at home, bring them to his seed germination greenhouse and then do all the transplanting there as well, and then he'd take care of the transplants until they were ready to go out.

By that time, around 1999, I had to retire b'c of mobility problems and moved to where I am now but it was 45 min one way to Charlies several times a week to get everything done.

The summer of 2004 was the last time that I grew many hundreds of plants and varieties b'c it was in Dec of 2004 that I fell and that was the end of all my large scale growing.

But all those years in the falling down greenhouse are just wonderful memories for me. In the meantime my father died, mother had to go to an adult home eventually and I brought Bootsie up here with me and he lived to age 16. Now I have two cat kids who own me, one 13 and the other one 7. One is brilliant and understands quite a few words and in the summer jumps up on my car at night to turn on the motion detector lights when she wants to come in. And let's just say that the other one is less brilliant, well quite a bit less brilliant, actually.

[LuvsToPlant]

Originally Posted by ddsack

I am happy to agree with Carolyn in this, not the least of which is because I now have her benediction in continuing my lazy, dirty ways.

LOL ...I guess that is one way of looking at it!

To sterilize ...or not to sterilize is your choice.
If you have had plant diseases you probably would be safer
to do so ...as we instruct the home gardener.

For any information regarding sterilization
please visit any Coop Extention Service in your area or state..
There is other alternatives other than bleach for the organic grower as well.

Happy and HeAlThY gardening to you!

[tam91]

Love the stories Carolyn! Aren't animals and their intelligance (or lack thereof) a riot? I have the genius dog, and the ... not so much. My smart one rings doorbells that hang from the knob - and makes a game of making me get up constantly to "serve" him. My two cats seem of fairly equal intelligance - they both try to keep dry, but are frequenly soggy from the dogs sucking on them.