Pine cones, paper and no till composting

zeroma · March 13, 2013

Each day I've been walking the dog, I've been gathering pine cones. I've got about 18 gal bucket of them already from this past two weeks.

I want to break them into smallest possible pieces to use in building the soil. I will cover the English Ivy that I've been getting rid of for the last few years. It is on a hill. I want to rework that entire area. Last year my neighboor cut down the big shade tree that provided shade to that area - which has hostas and other plants that prefere more shady conditions. Clay is not easy.

My plan is to bag the pin cones in sturdy bags and run over them with the car tires. I'll put layers of newspaper, pine cone bits, wetted down cardboard, a little garden soil, a roll of craft paper to really make a light barrier, dog hair and coffee grounds and kitchen scrapes, more paper-shredded, more organic stuff to hold down the shredded paper, the compost from the bin from last year, 40 pounds of bagged manue, etc.

No till garden and mostly no IVY is my hope. I'll cover the entire area with mulch and next year, or later this fall, plant some interesting shrubs and flowers and bulbs. It will make more sunny room to grow some veggies in 2014.

Any other way to break down the pine cones? no lawnmower, so can't mulch them.

Oh and one more thing I'll do. I read that worms love to eat not just paper, but cracked corn. So I'll sprinkle cracked corn down first, right in the ivy, to draw up the worms to work this clay ivy hill.

Redbaron · March 13, 2013

Pine cones have a very high carbon to nitrogen ratio. To help break them or any other woody material down a high nitrogen (lower carbon to nitrogen ratio) material is needed to get a balance. That could be green leafy material like grass clippings, or various manures etc. Then just let nature take its course. You wouldn't necessarily even have to chop up the pine cones if you had enough compost, manure, and grass clippings etc.. mixed in with them. They can provide structure and air pockets naturally so you don't have to try and "mix" what will become essentially a large compost pile on top of a rocky clay hill.

At least until the whole thing reaches a reasonable equilibrium. Good luck

zeroma · March 14, 2013

Thanks Redbaron. Mostly I wanted the "free texture" thing going on. I don't have any grass to cut, but do have one neighboor who does't use chemicals in her lawn that I've beenable to pick up on mowing days. That rocky, clay, ivy hill will surrender! After all it didn't always have ivy on it. The previous owner who built the house had to put that dirt pile there in the first place (when the basement was dug out) and she planted each piece of ivy one at a time...oh my. Lions and tigers and bears and ivy.

Redbaron · March 14, 2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeroma

Thanks Redbaron. Mostly I wanted the "free texture" thing going on. I don't have any grass to cut, but do have one neighboor who does't use chemicals in her lawn that I've beenable to pick up on mowing days. That rocky, clay, ivy hill will surrender! After all it didn't always have ivy on it. The previous owner who built the house had to put that dirt pile there in the first place (when the basement was dug out) and she planted each piece of ivy one at a time...oh my. Lions and tigers and bears and ivy.

At least you have the normal sort of Ivy. I have an evil spawn of the devil poison ivy that is in the fence line between me and the military base. Because I can't get to the other military base side of the fence, I can never quite get it all.

So I basically use it as a semi shaded spot and trim as much as I can from this side. And then pay the penalty of poison ivy later.

zeroma · March 15, 2013

I'm blessed to have English Ivy then I guess. Poison ivy would be a huge problem as the DH is really sensitive. Today I clean my house and then start planting 'mater seeds. Can hardly stand it I'm so excited. Pine cone beware, you are about to be hugged to pieces.

lakelady · March 15, 2013

Well, I admit, I really like your method for breaking down the pine cones! lol...good luck with that! And good luck with the Ivy. I have many "problem" plants thanks to my neighbors who insist on planting every invasive plant known to man along my fence. <sigh> the bamboo is the absolute WORST!

Got Worms? · March 15, 2013

Pine (pine straw) needles are good too. They will break down faster than the cones. As always mix with nitrogen rich greens; grass. coffee grounds, green weeds, etc..

BTW my bane is Japanese Barberry interspersed with Poison Ivy. Luckily it's on the property line with the neighbor from hell.

zeroma · March 15, 2013

LOL lakelady... Pest plants are just so much work. One man's treasure blah blah blah.

Oh man Japanese Barberry interspersed with Poison Ivy - how wicked is that combo?

One day soon I'll take a drive to the park where there is a lot of Pine etc. Just me and a few big bags, or better yet my Rubbermaid storage container or two. I like the cones that are all nice and open, not the ones that resemble old cigars, they are too dense. But I'll gather what is out there for me.

As no one is needing to cut the grass yet, in fact snow is possible this Sunday, I'll just keep up with the blenderized kitchen scrapes and the coffee grounds for my 'greens'.

if only my leaf vacuum worked better, I'd be chopping up the pine cones in that. I bought one of those less powerful models late fall which works fine for sucking up dry leaves. What I was disappointed about was that it didn't mulch very fine.

One good invention that needs to be invented is a kitchen model shredder. Bigger, more powerful that the kitchen blender, but much more scaled down from a garden chipper.

FarmerShawn · March 15, 2013

Zeroma, if your leaf vac does any shredding at all, and the leaves are dry, you could try just dumping them out and sucking them up again. My DR vac will produce a much finer mulch if I do that.
Shawn

Got Worms? · March 16, 2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeroma

LOL lakelady... Pest plants are just so much work. One man's treasure blah blah blah.

Oh man Japanese Barberry interspersed with Poison Ivy - how wicked is that combo?

One day soon I'll take a drive to the park where there is a lot of Pine etc. Just me and a few big bags, or better yet my Rubbermaid storage container or two. I like the cones that are all nice and open, not the ones that resemble old cigars, they are too dense. But I'll gather what is out there for me.

As no one is needing to cut the grass yet, in fact snow is possible this Sunday, I'll just keep up with the blenderized kitchen scrapes and the coffee grounds for my 'greens'.

if only my leaf vacuum worked better, I'd be chopping up the pine cones in that. I bought one of those less powerful models late fall which works fine for sucking up dry leaves. What I was disappointed about was that it didn't mulch very fine.

One good invention that needs to be invented is a kitchen model shredder. Bigger, more powerful that the kitchen blender, but much more scaled down from a garden chipper.

It's already been invented; it's called the "Under-sink Kitchen Garbage Disposal". You just need to adapt an old one to your needs.

Make a hopper by mounting the "in-feed" drain basket piece to a hole that you cut into the bottom of an old Tupperware bowl. The discharge end needs to go into a bucket, so it could deposit the goodies. You need to be creative to tie and hold it all together while keeping everything pretty much sealed up. Set it up on a small stand to slide the bucket (maybe 1 gal) underneath.

Charlie

zeroma · March 16, 2013

Hey Farmer Shawn, I did that! It worked ok. Talk about getting dusty!!! I got it late in the Fall, and remember not having the really dry leaves which worked the best. I'm going to try using it on some of the pine cones after I kill them with the tires. LOL I'll do that on a day where I need a "mental health" day off.

JLJ_ · March 16, 2013

Three thoughts that you might include in your planning.

1) I don't know if worms like cracked corn -- but mice and voles certainly do. When I add corn to the garden area (as fertilizer that may help discourage powdery mildew, not as worm food) I use corn meal. I expect that is more edible by worms and, when buried, less attractive to mice, voles and birds (who might eat any worms present for dessert).

2) You might need to watch your pine cones to see whether this is true of them -- would depend upon type and age -- but I find that pine cones, uncrushed, can be useful to put into mixtures that I want to decay into soil, as they can have a sort of aeration and earth stirring function. When our pine cones here are dry, they look like . . . like Christmas decoration type pine cones. But when they are wet, they collapse into compact shapes, much more like the state they are in when growing. If they change from dry to wet to dry to wet, they collapse, then expand over and over. They do eventually decay and collapse permanently, but in the meantime they stir whatever mix they are in . . . sort of. Note that this wouldn't work if they were in an always wet environment. Here, even in spring, there are enough dry spells that they cycle from wet to dry.

3) I don't think wet pine cones will break up under your car tires, and if your pine cones are anything like ours, they will tear up most bags you put them into before they will crush under your car tires. Again, whether this is true depends upon the type and age of cones you have, but I'd experiment cautiously if you do decide to drive over them.

Got Worms? · March 16, 2013

I wonder what an under-sink kitchen garbage dis....USKGD unit...would do to a pine cone?

zeroma · March 17, 2013

JLJ. I didn't think about mice and voles. Maybe I'll rethink the corn. And I surely don't want the birds having dessert on my worms! When I was working out there with the pick ax in the past few years, the robins were so daring or friendly, that they were right there to pick out worms as I'd turn some of the soil. This year I'm in no mood to share.

Some of the collected pine cones are wet, some dry. I'll think of a way to kill at least some of them. And leave some as they are. Mostly they will be buried in layers of organic stuff to make my new planting area for at least a full year. If by fall it has decomposed enough, I'll plant bulbs etc.

Got Worms? Oh my. I can hear my hubby now. "You did what in the garbage disposal? What were you thinking!!!!!" But I'd bet if there was a way to make the grounds go into a filter - water out cone chips in a bag.... that the motor would work for that.... oh my I think it's bed time. I need to sleep on that thought. Oh my....

Alpinejs · March 17, 2013

I have had a "haystack" of pine needles for at least fifteen years and they
showed no or little signs of decomposing, so last fall, I added a pickup load of
horse manure and a large trash can of rabbit manure lots of cardboard and
household food scraps and a couple thousand red wiggler worms.
Already. it is obvious that I will have some great compose in that pile by the time
I return from Canada next fall. The pile is now all green from all the squash
seeds in the kitchen scraps that are germinating all over the place. Once rid
of that haystack, I will have a spot for another hoophouse or many bales for
strawbale gardening.

March 13, 2013	#1
zeroma Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2012 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 637	Pine cones, paper and no till composting Each day I've been walking the dog, I've been gathering pine cones. I've got about 18 gal bucket of them already from this past two weeks. I want to break them into smallest possible pieces to use in building the soil. I will cover the English Ivy that I've been getting rid of for the last few years. It is on a hill. I want to rework that entire area. Last year my neighboor cut down the big shade tree that provided shade to that area - which has hostas and other plants that prefere more shady conditions. Clay is not easy. My plan is to bag the pin cones in sturdy bags and run over them with the car tires. I'll put layers of newspaper, pine cone bits, wetted down cardboard, a little garden soil, a roll of craft paper to really make a light barrier, dog hair and coffee grounds and kitchen scrapes, more paper-shredded, more organic stuff to hold down the shredded paper, the compost from the bin from last year, 40 pounds of bagged manue, etc. No till garden and mostly no IVY is my hope. I'll cover the entire area with mulch and next year, or later this fall, plant some interesting shrubs and flowers and bulbs. It will make more sunny room to grow some veggies in 2014. Any other way to break down the pine cones? no lawnmower, so can't mulch them. Oh and one more thing I'll do. I read that worms love to eat not just paper, but cracked corn. So I'll sprinkle cracked corn down first, right in the ivy, to draw up the worms to work this clay ivy hill.

March 13, 2013	#2
Redbaron Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 4,488	Pine cones have a very high carbon to nitrogen ratio. To help break them or any other woody material down a high nitrogen (lower carbon to nitrogen ratio) material is needed to get a balance. That could be green leafy material like grass clippings, or various manures etc. Then just let nature take its course. You wouldn't necessarily even have to chop up the pine cones if you had enough compost, manure, and grass clippings etc.. mixed in with them. They can provide structure and air pockets naturally so you don't have to try and "mix" what will become essentially a large compost pile on top of a rocky clay hill. At least until the whole thing reaches a reasonable equilibrium. Good luck __________________ Scott AKA The Redbaron "Permaculture is a philosophy of working with, rather than against nature; of protracted & thoughtful observation rather than protracted & thoughtless labour; & of looking at plants & animals in all their functions, rather than treating any area as a single-product system." Bill Mollison co-founder of permaculture

March 15, 2013	#6
lakelady Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: northern NJ zone 6b Posts: 1,862	Well, I admit, I really like your method for breaking down the pine cones! lol...good luck with that! And good luck with the Ivy. I have many "problem" plants thanks to my neighbors who insist on planting every invasive plant known to man along my fence. <sigh> the bamboo is the absolute WORST! __________________ Antoniette

March 15, 2013	#9
FarmerShawn Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Vermont Posts: 1,001	Zeroma, if your leaf vac does any shredding at all, and the leaves are dry, you could try just dumping them out and sucking them up again. My DR vac will produce a much finer mulch if I do that. Shawn __________________ "Red meat is NOT bad for you. Now blue-green meat, THAT'S bad for you!" -- Tommy Smothers

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March 14, 2013	#3
zeroma Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2012 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 637	Thanks Redbaron. Mostly I wanted the "free texture" thing going on. I don't have any grass to cut, but do have one neighboor who does't use chemicals in her lawn that I've beenable to pick up on mowing days. That rocky, clay, ivy hill will surrender! After all it didn't always have ivy on it. The previous owner who built the house had to put that dirt pile there in the first place (when the basement was dug out) and she planted each piece of ivy one at a time...oh my. Lions and tigers and bears and ivy.

March 15, 2013	#7
Got Worms? Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: NY Zone 5b/6a Posts: 546	Pine (pine straw) needles are good too. They will break down faster than the cones. As always mix with nitrogen rich greens; grass. coffee grounds, green weeds, etc.. BTW my bane is Japanese Barberry interspersed with Poison Ivy. Luckily it's on the property line with the neighbor from hell.

March 16, 2013	#11
zeroma Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2012 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 637	Hey Farmer Shawn, I did that! It worked ok. Talk about getting dusty!!! I got it late in the Fall, and remember not having the really dry leaves which worked the best. I'm going to try using it on some of the pine cones after I kill them with the tires. LOL I'll do that on a day where I need a "mental health" day off.

March 16, 2013	#12
JLJ_ Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Wyoming Posts: 759	Three thoughts that you might include in your planning. 1) I don't know if worms like cracked corn -- but mice and voles certainly do. When I add corn to the garden area (as fertilizer that may help discourage powdery mildew, not as worm food) I use corn meal. I expect that is more edible by worms and, when buried, less attractive to mice, voles and birds (who might eat any worms present for dessert). 2) You might need to watch your pine cones to see whether this is true of them -- would depend upon type and age -- but I find that pine cones, uncrushed, can be useful to put into mixtures that I want to decay into soil, as they can have a sort of aeration and earth stirring function. When our pine cones here are dry, they look like . . . like Christmas decoration type pine cones. But when they are wet, they collapse into compact shapes, much more like the state they are in when growing. If they change from dry to wet to dry to wet, they collapse, then expand over and over. They do eventually decay and collapse permanently, but in the meantime they stir whatever mix they are in . . . sort of. Note that this wouldn't work if they were in an always wet environment. Here, even in spring, there are enough dry spells that they cycle from wet to dry. 3) I don't think wet pine cones will break up under your car tires, and if your pine cones are anything like ours, they will tear up most bags you put them into before they will crush under your car tires. Again, whether this is true depends upon the type and age of cones you have, but I'd experiment cautiously if you do decide to drive over them.

March 17, 2013	#14
zeroma Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2012 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 637	JLJ. I didn't think about mice and voles. Maybe I'll rethink the corn. And I surely don't want the birds having dessert on my worms! When I was working out there with the pick ax in the past few years, the robins were so daring or friendly, that they were right there to pick out worms as I'd turn some of the soil. This year I'm in no mood to share. Some of the collected pine cones are wet, some dry. I'll think of a way to kill at least some of them. And leave some as they are. Mostly they will be buried in layers of organic stuff to make my new planting area for at least a full year. If by fall it has decomposed enough, I'll plant bulbs etc. Got Worms? Oh my. I can hear my hubby now. "You did what in the garbage disposal? What were you thinking!!!!!" But I'd bet if there was a way to make the grounds go into a filter - water out cone chips in a bag.... that the motor would work for that.... oh my I think it's bed time. I need to sleep on that thought. Oh my....

March 17, 2013	#15
Alpinejs Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Alpine, Calif. in winter. Sandpoint Lake, Ont. Canada summers Posts: 850	I have had a "haystack" of pine needles for at least fifteen years and they showed no or little signs of decomposing, so last fall, I added a pickup load of horse manure and a large trash can of rabbit manure lots of cardboard and household food scraps and a couple thousand red wiggler worms. Already. it is obvious that I will have some great compose in that pile by the time I return from Canada next fall. The pile is now all green from all the squash seeds in the kitchen scraps that are germinating all over the place. Once rid of that haystack, I will have a spot for another hoophouse or many bales for strawbale gardening.