how long do you let your seed ferment?

[habitat_gardener]

I was at a tomato fermentation demo (at the Sunol Ag Park) last week where the person recommended 3 weeks ("did you say 3 weeks?" I asked. "yes, 3 weeks," he said.) as the fermentation time. (No, it wasn't Fred, it was at another farm.)

I've heard 3-5 days here.

Sometimes I let my seeds ferment longer, though usually not more than a week or so. But 3 weeks?? I'd have thought some of them would sprout by then.

[ginger2778]

Originally Posted by habitat_gardener

I was at a tomato fermentation demo (at the Sunol Ag Park) last week where the person recommended 3 weeks ("did you say 3 weeks?" I asked. "yes, 3 weeks," he said.) as the fermentation time. (No, it wasn't Fred, it was at another farm.)

I've heard 3-5 days here.

Sometimes I let my seeds ferment longer, though usually not more than a week or so. But 3 weeks?? I'd have thought some of them would sprout by then.

Usually about 3 days is all it needs. Did a batch for 9 days, then germ. tested
And only 1 of 6 germinated. Same plant seeds with a 3 day ferment yielded 100 % germination. I am fermenting in the heat of summer because my season is over then, so I guess thats why the short time is good. I think for most of you it would be end of summer or fall so your temps for fermentation are probably cooler.

Marsha

[carolyn137]

There are MANY variables that determine when fermentatiob is complete.

Here's a recent thread all about that where I guess I did post a lot.

http://tomatoville.com/showthread.ph...hlight=bubbles

Carolyn, who notes that one size does NOT fit all when it comes to the processing and effectiveness of fermentation.

[amideutch]

There are some variables associated with the seed fermentation process and ambient temperature is probably the leading one. I do mine on a weekly basis as the weekends are normally the only time I have to remove seeds, ferment and process the following weekend.

I don't get into bubble counting or monitoring the process. After fermenting I clean the seeds under the faucet in a colander then I immerse the colander/seeds in solution of water and TSP (Trisodium Phosphate) and clean the seeds one more time before rinsing and putting them on paper plates to dry.

For me the fermenting process is to enhance the cleaning process more so than disease control as the TSP takes care of that. Right now I ferment my seeds in the basement that stays around 60 deg F. and could probably extend the length of the fermentation period to two weeks but there would be nothing gained by doing so.

I don't see seed cleaning methods as a player in organic versus non-organic as far as the final product is concerned as long as organic methods are used once the seedling is sprouted and gets it's first set of true leaves.

Ami

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by amideutch

There are some variables associated with the seed fermentation process and ambient temperature is probably the leading one. I do mine on a weekly basis as the weekends are normally the only time I have to remove seeds, ferment and process the following weekend.

I don't get into bubble counting or monitoring the process. After fermenting I clean the seeds under the faucet in a colander then I immerse the colander/seeds in solution of water and TSP (Trisodium Phosphate) and clean the seeds one more time before rinsing and putting them on paper plates to dry.

For me the fermenting process is to enhance the cleaning process more so than disease control as the TSP takes care of that. Right now I ferment my seeds in the basement that stays around 60 deg F. and could probably extend the length of the fermentation period to two weeks but there would be nothing gained by doing so.

I don't see seed cleaning methods as a player in organic versus non-organic as far as the final product is concerned as long as organic methods are used once the seedling is sprouted and gets it's first set of true leaves.

Ami

Ami, heaven forbid I don't count bubbles myself, but I do see it as an indication that the anaerobic fermentation has started. And if there's a major delay it's usually one of these three reasons.

Lack of a good fungal mat

The container contents are too thick and then I add some water.

Too cool ambient temp.

Before I retired I had to set up fermentations in late August thru mid September while I was still teaching and so had perhaps 100 fermentations going at one time, and when they looked close to being finished and needed processing I started another hundred or so.

I did the same after I moved here until I fell in Dec of 2004 and that put me in this walker.

The seeds I produced were really very good, beige and fluffy, so I was doing fermentations not for cleaning seeds, but primarily for eliminating as many pathogens on the seed coat as I could, for me those were the foliage pathogens, as well as getting the gel capsules off the seeds.

And I couldn't agree more about the organic slant. There are those who for philosphical reasons want to buy only organic seed, that I understand, but it's HOW you grow the plants, organically, that really matters.

Carolyn

[amideutch]

One thing I didn't mention is I have no problem getting fungal mats during the fermentation period in my basement. I to was curious about the low temperature in my basement and after doing my first batch could breath easier as the fungal mats did appear.

Ami

[ContainerTed]

I've always considered that the longer the seeds are in the soup, the higher the possibility that they might germinate and then you have none. My experience tells me that the ambient temperature definitely has an effect on the development of the fungi that accomplish the prime mission - that of getting the gel sacs dissolved.

I also agree with Ami and Carolyn that the process will get done in a few days - not a couple weeks. The process each of us uses is something that we develop thru trial and error and becomes very personal - in that we become comfortable with a certain group of steps and time measurements that give us good results. I would certainly be VERY uncomfortable with allowing my fermentations to go past 5 or 6 days.

I think the originater of this thread ran into one of those "Master Gardener" types who has never been behind a plow or even a rototiller. I hate anything that doesn't think outside the box.

Whatever happened to "original thought"????

[goodwin]

I agree with what has been said so far. My seed gets processed in the garage since my wife chased the fermentation out of the house years ago. I suppose not everyone appreciates the wonderful aroma.
In the summer, it took only a couple or three days to acquire that fine mat and smell. Now with the cool temperatures, it is more like five days. In fact, this evening I moved the process into a warmer workshop to finish.
I use a little bleach in the final rinse, but I haven't seen any disease transmission even without that step. I happen to like the clean, fluffy appearance of traditionally processed seed . There are probably a number of systems that work.

Lee

[paulgrow]

I'm in the same boat as Goodwin, my wife chased me out to the garage, she has a very sensitive smeller.

I usually let mine go for 5-7 days.

[Cincinnati]

I harvested tomato seed for the first time in May 2013 - at the end of our spring crop from a unique cultivar that a friend cross-bred. At his recommendation, I let nature run its course then intending to separate the seeds which included letting them begin to decompose in a styrofoam bowl in the cupboard. All I ended up with was a cupboard full of fruit flies in a smelly mess which I threw out. He gave me a few more tomatoes and I started over. This time I simply separated the seeds from the pulp, placing them on a strip on a paper towel. They dried and I "flicked" them off and stored them in a cabinet drawer for 10 weeks. I started them in vermiculite and got 100% germination. The fall crop was fabulous.

So I repeated my harvesting process with the biggest and first ripened fruits from my fall crop. I have about 300 seeds stuck to 2 or 3 paper towels. I did not ferment. They are dried. I am considering germinating just after Thanksgiving.

I am still harvesting my fall crop. Is there a reason to harvest more seeds, and to ferment them?

[ginger2778]

The biggest reason as I see it to ferment instead of just drying is because fermenting kills a lot of pathogens. It also gets rid of the seed gel which if left on can inhibit germination. Try fermenting with a little water added, and left where the fruit flies wont bother you. Also, use a solo cup or glass bowl, something not as porous as styrofoam. As soon as the white scum appears they are done, should only take a few days rather than a few weeks. You can dry them on a paper plate or coffee filter for a week or so after and they will be clean and fluffy.
Or if it works for you, just keep doing what you are doing!

Marsha

Originally Posted by Cincinnati

I harvested tomato seed for the first time in May 2013 - at the end of our spring crop from a unique cultivar that a friend cross-bred. At his recommendation, I let nature run its course then intending to separate the seeds which included letting them begin to decompose in a styrofoam bowl in the cupboard. All I ended up with was a cupboard full of fruit flies in a smelly mess which I threw out. He gave me a few more tomatoes and I started over. This time I simply separated the seeds from the pulp, placing them on a strip on a paper towel. They dried and I "flicked" them off and stored them in a cabinet drawer for 10 weeks. I started them in vermiculite and got 100% germination. The fall crop was fabulous.

So I repeated my harvesting process with the biggest and first ripened fruits from my fall crop. I have about 300 seeds stuck to 2 or 3 paper towels. I did not ferment. They are dried. I am considering germinating just after Thanksgiving.

I am still harvesting my fall crop. Is there a reason to harvest more seeds, and to ferment them?

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by ginger2778

The biggest reason as I see it to ferment instead of just drying is because fermenting kills a lot of pathogens. It also gets rid of the seed gel which if left on can inhibit germination. Try fermenting with a little water added, and left where the fruit flies wont bother you. Also, use a solo cup or glass bowl, something not as porous as styrofoam. As soon as the white scum appears they are done, should only take a few days rather than a few weeks. You can dry them on a paper plate or coffee filter for a week or so after and they will be clean and fluffy.
Or if it works for you, just keep doing what you are doing!

Marsha

Just adding to what Marsha wrote/

First, see what the germination is with those last seeds you processed and if good, no need to process more, depending on how many seeds you think you need.

When I first started processing seeds myself, which was in the early 80's all was well, and I fermented them b'c that's what I'd read about. When I joined SSE in 1989 I was sent unfermented seeds by others dried on paper towels, TP and cut up paper plates, etc., and they germinated quite well.

But then I got more involved in trying to understand why fermentation is preferable for many folks, depending on where they were, in a geographic sense, as to which specific tomato diseases were a problem.

Fermentation is best only for some fungal pathogens that are adhered to the seed coat. Bacterial pathogens and viral ones are in the endosperm of the seed so fermentation can do nothing for them.

Even so, fermentation doesn't kill all the fungal pathogens, it just reduces the numbers and that helps since infection is a quantitative process, so often just the fermentation can help prevent foliage diseases, and some systemic diseases such as Fusarium, Verticillium, and thelike.

Yes, the gel around the seeds is removed if the fermentation is done properly, but the purpose of that inhibitor in the gel is to prevent germination when conditions are not conducive to germination, such as during the winter. There is a natural life cycle for tomatoes, and that means that fruits fall to the gorund in the Fall, seeds with them, temps get cold, and then in the Spring some of those seeds will make it through the winter and then germinate and we call those volunteer plants.

A few times I've had to sow seeds that were fresh out of the fruits, no processing at all, and germination was always close to 100% since the conditions I germinate seeds in was warm and moist.

The person who did most of the great studies on fermentation and pathogen removal is Dr. Helene Dillard, who used to be at the Geneva, NY plant station where she received grants from either Campbells or Heinz, I can't remember which one. I talked on the phone with her twice and she also published papers on this. She is now at Cornell Univerity in Ithaca, NY.

https://www.google.com/#q=Helene+Dil...+ferrmentation

Above is a link to a general Google search that I did using her name and you'll find many links about fermentation at Tville and other places as well.

Hope that helps,

Carolyn,who always ferments tomato seed, and the time it takes to get a complete fermentation is highly variable depending on ambient temps, how viscous the mix is and more, all addressed in some of those links in the Google search.