"BESTS" OR EXEMPLARS BY TYPES et. al.

[mensplace]

Recently there was an interesting set of subjective charts re YELLOW tomatoes. I believe that such as this, as a reference point, would be a very valuable reference point for many. I skirted this is referencing a "BEST" medium sized, light acid, full bodied tomato with plenty of radial locules. As stated then, this would be a different "TYPE" from Beefsteak. I thought it a fairly straightforward interrogative. But, my thought behind the question was really fairly basic, with all of the crossing, breeding, and varieties over the past, many would benefit fro a simple chart for points of reference and selection to know what the community here considers the best exemplar of those within a given set of traits, i.e. a rather basic chart by hybrid vs OP, size, color, acid amount, texture that would at least be a starting point for rookies and even folks like myself who, due to memory issues, sometime need to check. I don't care for cherry tomatoes, so no need to look there. I don't care for beefsteaks, so skip those, I can't ( as of this year) eat the high acid fruits anymore...skip those.

You see where I'm going? Sometimes now I can't even remember the month and have to sometimes stop in mid writing to remember my own name, much less the traits of the hundreds of varieties I grew before my strokes. Even the newcomers, often ask the very same questions to get started. A simple chart or even database wherein one could input the few variables or scan a chart would be an invaluable asset. You want to know the top few yellows, simply scan the chart or input the features desired and voila! At least that would be a starting point and generally not disappoint. As we pursue a more scientific approach, whether brix, mineral content, or even identifiable phenols maybe things could be even further refined. Maybe. With all of the many different names for the same tomato, just maybe DNA or some similar markers, could even further eliminate much confusion...later.

For now, it would be nice to even have that basic starting point as illustrated by Scott's excellent work. In even my simple question recently the Break O' Day came up. Yet another to be investigated. Most folks simply can't grow out hundreds of varieties, but what a blessing it would be to quietly go on line, look for a few simple variables, and have a few that meet most of the criterion or hoped for features. I know many want to test many hundreds year to year or keep striving fro new crosses, but for others, for a host of reasons, it would be nice just to look up a few for, say, my now greatly limited garden, space, and abilities and feel fairly sure that I would know at least a few for that basic mater sandwich.

Just saying, so go easy on me. My not wanting cherry tomatoes, or the texture of beefsteaks, or trying to please a wife who now suddenly reveals that she isn't going to eat my Cherokee Purple, is in no way intended as a slight to you. In fact, I was overjoyed to grow out the wonderful seed you folks very kindly provided for my Fall planted, and I am proud to say they are already fruiting. Thanks to all....as always. Someday you too may be gardening on your knees, so you tolerance is greatly appreciated.

[carolyn137]

But, my thought behind the question was really fairly basic, with all of the crossing, breeding, and varieties over the past, many would benefit fro a simple chart for points of reference and selection to know what the community here considers the best exemplar of those within a given set of traits, i.e. a rather basic chart by hybrid vs OP, size, color, acid amount, texture that would at least be a starting point for rookies and even folks like myself who, due to memory issues, sometime need to check. I don't care for cherry tomatoes, so no need to look there. I don't care for beefsteaks, so skip those, I can't ( as of this year) eat the high acid fruits anymore...skip those.

&&&&&&

A noble idea indeed but in my opinion impossible to do.

I'm not the only one here who has grown thousands of varieties, and about 20K OP varieties are known, close to that now available to the public, as well as about 300 F1 hybrids.

Scott limited himself to one color class and one fruit shape and did searches here to get that data.

But as I read your request, you want folks to post here about all color classes and fruit shapes, and plant habits, etc. and no one can post about acidity b/c that's a personal issue and actual pH values don't always reflect taste.

You also posted:


(You see where I'm going? Sometimes now I can't even remember the month and have to sometimes stop in mid writing to remember my own name, much less the traits of the hundreds of varieties I grew before my strokes. Even the newcomers, often ask the very same questions to get started. A simple chart or even database wherein one could input the few variables or scan a chart would be an invaluable asset. You want to know the top few yellows, simply scan the chart or input the features desired and voila! At least that would be a starting point and generally not disappoint. As we pursue a more scientific approach, whether brix, mineral content, or even identifiable phenols maybe things could be even further refined. Maybe. With all of the many different names for the same tomato, just maybe DNA or some similar markers, could even further eliminate much confusion...later.)

it seems to me that you want this for your own personal use since you said to skip beefsteaks and cherries, since you don't like them.

Kath has given long extensive feedback on what she grows for many years, and with the performance threads that I post for my annual seed offers, well, those go back to 2007 here for me, and many others have also given feedback as well, and there are quite a few folks who once posted about their feedback that for one reason or another, are no longer here either.

Summary?

Impossible to do what you are asking for.

Every one of us here started as rookies, newbies,, and had to develop knowledge through the years. And that's part of the challenge and fun as I see it. And if one wants more information about varieties that come their way there's always Tania's superb site as well as the yearly SSE YEarbooks for SSE members.

Just my opinion on your request but others may see it differently .

Carolyn, who was growing many different varieties before home computers were common, and for sure before there were all the message sites now extant, but loved every minute of the journey to greater knowledge by learning on her own and has seen many here and elsewhere enjoying that same journey.

[mensplace]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

But, my thought behind the question was really fairly basic, with all of the crossing, breeding, and varieties over the past, many would benefit fro a simple chart for points of reference and selection to know what the community here considers the best exemplar of those within a given set of traits, i.e. a rather basic chart by hybrid vs OP, size, color, acid amount, texture that would at least be a starting point for rookies and even folks like myself who, due to memory issues, sometime need to check. I don't care for cherry tomatoes, so no need to look there. I don't care for beefsteaks, so skip those, I can't ( as of this year) eat the high acid fruits anymore...skip those.

&&&&&&

A noble idea indeed but in my opinion impossible to do. You are certainly entitled to your opinion.

I'm not the only one here who has grown thousands of varieties, and about 20K OP varieties are known, close to that now available to the public, as well as about 300 F1 hybrids.

Scott limited himself to one color class and one fruit shape and did searches here to get that data.

But as I read your request, you want folks to post here about all color classes and fruit shapes, and plant habits, etc. and no one can post about acidity b/c that's a personal issue and actual pH values don't always reflect taste. You are really twisting words and intent. My thought was more along the lines of a group effort towards a common, simple end. If other variables were added later as time and abilities permit, that would be another matter. But, even the simple-minded rookie can taste acidity and salt without becoming a tomato scientist. This would be just a help in deciding using WHATEVER variables would contribute.

You also posted:


(You see where I'm going? Sometimes now I can't even remember the month and have to sometimes stop in mid writing to remember my own name, much less the traits of the hundreds of varieties I grew before my strokes. Even the newcomers, often ask the very same questions to get started. A simple chart or even database wherein one could input the few variables or scan a chart would be an invaluable asset. You want to know the top few yellows, simply scan the chart or input the features desired and voila! At least that would be a starting point and generally not disappoint. As we pursue a more scientific approach, whether brix, mineral content, or even identifiable phenols maybe things could be even further refined. Maybe. With all of the many different names for the same tomato, just maybe DNA or some similar markers, could even further eliminate much confusion...later.)

it seems to me that you want this for your own personal use since you said to skip beefsteaks and cherries, since you don't like them.Again twisting words and intent. If I choose to overlook a category in my looking at a chart or doing a search, that would not prevent others from looking up whatever they want. Why must this be so complicated, when most just are looking for something simple....and it COULD be simple

Kath has given long extensive feedback on what she grows for many years, and with the performance threads that I post for my annual seed offers, well, those go back to 2007 here for me, and many others have also given feedback as well, and there are quite a few folks who once posted about their feedback that for one reason or another, are no longer here either.

Summary?

Impossible to do what you are asking for.Totally disagree. Most folks could care less about 3000 varieties. They just want a few suggestions of those known to fit within a few simple parameter. You are looking at the whole forest when I only want to select from a few of the better tree specimens.

Every one of us here started as rookies, newbies,, and had to develop knowledge through the years. And that's part of the challenge and fun as I see it.Some just want to choose a few tomatoes, that's no threat to your heritage, contributions or interests And if one wants more information about varieties that come their way there's always Tania's superb site as well as the yearly SSE YEarbooks for SSE members.

Just my opinion on your request but others may see it differently .

Carolyn, who was growing many different varieties before home computers were common, and for sure before there were all the message sites now extant, but loved every minute of the journey to greater knowledge by learning on her own and has seen many here and elsewhere enjoying that same journey.

Clarence, who helped launch personal computers and the first networks and just want to make selecting tomatoes as easy as possible...we don't have to know programming or assemble our own computers any longer either

[Worth1]

I'll put it as simple as I can.

If I would have listened to thoughts and reviews on certain types of tomatoes on this forum I would have missed out on some really good tomatoes.

Sungold has been described as the best thing since sliced bread to an orange ball of splitting garbage.

I look at tomatoes the same way I do people.
I will make my own mind up as to how I feel about them.

People have said I was a mean jerk to one of the best guys they have ever worked with full of fun and ready for adventure.

Just a thought.

Worth

[carolyn137]

Clarence, unfortunately your comments on what I posted are embedded within my comments, with no seperation, so folks will have to read your initial responses to me very very carefully.

Carolyn

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Clarence, unfortunately your comments on what I posted are embedded within my comments, with no seperation, so folks will have to read your initial responses to me very very carefully.

Carolyn

Carolyn I have read enough of your posts throughout the years to know when you stopped and someone else started in mid sentence.

Plus I read the intire thread and could detect the change in verbiage so I had to go back and look again.

A person could do this and then they said bla bla and then go back to regular type.

There are many ways to do it.

But I digress and need to go to the store so I can have a one person party here at home.
I got in yesterday and before I even walked in the door I promptly ate every tomato in the garden.

[ScottinAtlanta]

I would like to post some thoughts on mensplace's post, and the responses, because I think it is important to make information accessible to people who do not have the time or temperament to read through an enormous amount of information.

I am a newcomer to tomatoes. I started 5 years ago, and on TV four years ago. I have spent, conservatively, 500 hours reading posts on this Forum. It has been a wonderful immersion bath that has helped me immensely.

But I think this investment is not possible for many. I agree with mensplace that an indicative list of a good starting point for newcomers, ranked along common questions such as color, earliness, region, and taste, would really help folks make better decisions for their gardens, and improve access to the collective experiences documented in thousands of posts. Such a list should be updated regularly.

The top 10 could be called "TV Favorites" or something like that to give people without much time a fighting chance of picking something different that meets their needs.

So, while I completely agree with Carolyn that it is impossible do anything definitive or complete, it seems quite possible to do something more limited that helps many people without the time to do the research themselves on this forum.

I tried one approach that was posted separately. It was simply an experiment to try to consolidate more systematically subjective information spread across 8 years and hundreds of posts, and therefore almost inaccessible. I have spent many years making complex information accessible to people who need it and recognize that the methods are always problematic, but it seems to me worth the effort to make the site even more useful to a wider range of readers.

[KarenO]

I think anybody can do what they like but I also think that any list extrapolated from posts in the Tomatoville forums will be heavily skewed in favor of tomato varieties that do well in the southern USA simply by virtue of the demographics of this forum. That is just fine as long as "newbies" know that (which they wont).
As an example, of The tomatoes listed in the best of the yellows and golds list posted recently, none of them are tomatoes I think would do well here. I know that and so it is not a problem for me but something I spend time on is trying to convince short season gardeners that they can't do things here the way they are done in the south and be successful. An example of that is what I consider to be the bizarre practice of removing the earliest blossoms from tomato plants. In my area, those earliest blossoms are generally my largest and best tomatoes of the year. My point is, the lists will not be a good starting point for anyone who doesn't live in say zones 6 and higher. That is fine too, as long as folks realize that.
just my 0.2
KO

[ScottinAtlanta]

I am not sure of the Southern bias in the analysis. Of the 245 recommendations that I found for yellow/gold slicers, only 58 came from the Deep South. Around 75% of the total came from elsewhere - mostly from the North east and North west.

And, of course, the data can be stratified or separated by region, which I did, in order to zero in on the experiences of people in climates like my own.

[mensplace]

The allegation that I was merely seeking a simple reference point, list, table, or any kind of referenceable/search tool for anything other than all to use, especially newcomers, after having been a member here since around 2009 and having grown hundreds of varieties, and having read most of the books available, and having a lengthy list of favorite sites was at once misleading, insulting, and counterproductive to my thought to help all on Tomatoville ...newcomer or veteran. I can assure all that such was never my intent or even necessary as I have plenty of friends here as well as other resources that have always been there as guides and references.

The simple point was that many, especially newcomers, can always use a simple starting point, while other more seasoned veterans sometimes just like to be updated on what the current favorites or preferred varieties of the day may be. Most have little interest in wading through thousands of names and varieties when they really just want to grow a few of the better varieties of the day..north, south, east, west, or among our rapidly growing list of new friends in other countries.

One can disagree without disparagement or alleging ulterior motives. NOW, lest a simple idea become the cause of the sort of flame wars found on other forums. We can agree to disagree. If one has the time and interest in studying and researching thousands of varieties, or growing several hundred, that is their choice and bless them. However, I found the recent post with the analysis of some preference to be an easily understandable, valuable reference that was probably never intended to be the basis of an extensive thesis or contain ALL factors about all tomatoes, yellow or otherwise. For most it was exactly what it was presented to be and, as such, a tool for quick reference that provided some easy to understand reference points. I applauded the effort and outcome then, and I do now.

How hard would it be to compile a list of such favorites by various categories or selection criterion to simply be a starting point or quick reference? If folks want to explore beyond those varieties..have at it!

A very special friend here suggested that I have others gardens that need tending and she was absolutely right, and it is towards those ends that I have realized the need to do some listening and seed sewing of another type. Bless you all.

[bughunter99]

I disagree with what others have said, what you are saying can definitely be done. As a guide based on opinions, it would have its flaws but would be a nice bit of information to start with for sure and potentially as important of a data source as Tanja's is.

This is how I would do it.
-Via annual survey of a very very large data set. Survey helps eliminate peer pressure bias that you get in threads. Survey would be delivered via a subscribable APP. For a small fee, users not only get to enter and collect and retain all of their own tomato data for the season, but all get the benefit of benchmarking their data against everyone else using the APP. The only folks that get the APP data would be paid subscribers. Users that purchase more than one season get to see their own data side by side as well as the historical data of the whole population.
-A controlled data collection tool like this would require the population of key bits of important information that otherwise might be left out in say a forum.
-It would collect data for that particular year's growing conditions in that particular region
-A survey could require named varieties and not allow for F1 experiments.

Now the trick for such a survey would be to provide the information in such a way that that the varieties that flood the box stores "Big Boy" don't get an unfair representation. This could partially be controlled by splitting questions between hybrid and heirloom. Then there is the question of accuracy of data, you could add a question about years of experience growing tomatoes.

Key Questions:
-Tomato Variety Grown
-Hybrid versus Heirloom
-Tomato Type: Cherry, Slicer
-Tomato Color:
-State Grown In
-Year Grown In
-Growing Method: Ground, Container, Self Watering Container, Hydroponic
-Growing Location: Indoor, Outdoor
-Fertilization: None, Compost, Purchased Organic, Purchased Inorganic, Other
-Calcium added? Eggshells, Gypsum....
-Seed Obtained From:
Seed started in:
-Years experience growing tomatoes

Performance:
Seed viability: %
Date Planted:
Date Transplanted:
Date fruit seen:
Date first fruit Harvested:
Fruit harvested when: 100% colored; ~50% colored; <50% colored
BER: None, early fruits only, pervasive
Other disease seen: None noted, slight, moderate, significant
Number of fruits harvested: (optional)
Avg Total weight fruits harvested per plant: (optional)
Fruit appearance: Perfect, Good, fair, unattractive
Issues noted: check all that apply: zippering...catfacing..BER..drops off vine...insect damage...

Taste:
you get the idea....

If done well I would pay up to $10 annually for this (provided it wasn't owned by monsanto or an individual seed company). (This is high for an APP, but reasonable because of the analysis that goes with it.) I already do it via my own excel file, but the ability to see other's results from my region would add lots of value, as well as the convenience and data storage of an APP.
Billing does a few things. I would limit one license per email address, and help keep down the spam of those that might artificially inflate data. That does happen, but analysts know how to find it and dump it from the summary data.

So if you hire one of the top APP building firms, this effort would probably run 100-150K to build, they would do the whole thing. Do the math to figure out how many you would need to sell to get your return. Or you could find a couple of motivated geeks, and you could get us all something great within a few months!

Stacy

[mensplace]

I will defer to ScottinAtlanta's thread for all future posts and suggestions as it was his excellent work that was the original source of the posting that gave me the idea for this. Bughunter99 (stacy) please copy your post below to Scott.