A Simple Sounding Complex Question

[AlittleSalt]

I ask a lot of questions here as I am learning about gardening. This question will help me learn about gardening a lot.

Today, I had to take a day off from fixing up the garden to get it ready for fall gardening. I was stuck inside, so I read up about countless varieties of tomatoes that many people here have written about.

There were varieties I wanted to try that after learning about them - I cannot grow them here in our Texas heat and expect an easy bountiful harvest. Just one example is: Galina's Yellow Cherry. It comes from Siberia and grows well in northern US climates. Not here.

There were others that sounded really fun to grow like, "Indigo Rose" that about half liked them, and the other half thought they tasted like a shoe or mowed grass.

I could go on and on, but what I've learned is that some varieties grow well and taste great in certain areas, but might be a complete bust in other places.

Sounds long-winded, but my question is: Once you have found the best tomatoes for exactly where you are growing them (Heirloom): Do you get better tomatoes in years to come from saving the seeds from the Heirloom crops you grew in your soil and then planting them each year or season?

I explained my question/theory to a younger friend that growing saved heirloom seeds year-after-year and replanting those seeds in the same garden was like the plants growing up in their "Hood" so-to-speak.

[habitat_gardener]

I haven't grown my own saved seeds consistently enough to tell the difference, but one thing I do know is that every year, my list of "best tomatoes" changes, because I grow lots of new-to-me tomatoes each year, and sometimes the reliable varieties aren't.

The specific garden plot matters as well. I have gardens in 4 different places this year (tomatoes in 3 of them), and the same varieties are wildly different at different gardens. The best tomatoes are coming from the gardens where I've been working on the soil (adding compost, mulching well, etc.) the longest. Size is more than double for Tommy Toe cherry tomatoes at one garden; 3-4 times by weight at the last picking. I'm getting larger tomatoes in general at the garden where I've been growing the soil the longest.

[KarenO]

Hi there, I do believe that a variety can adapt to a specific area when grown and the very best, most vigorous and productive plants are selected to save seed from. I also think it would take years for this to occur and then only if the type is already at least somewhat suited to the area. I would start with tomatoes known to do well in your climate, experienced Texas gardeners would be the people who would know best.
KarenO

[Cole_Robbie]

In recent years, I think all of us have had wacky weather that is difficult to predict. If the weather were exactly the same every year, then the "one perfect tomato" theory might work. But my weather is a roll of the dice. Furthermore, I am always experimenting with soil amendments, fertilizers, and irrigation techniques. All of those introduce further variables to affect the outcome of which tomato is best.

[COMPOSTER]

I agree with all the statements made so far. I think better soil will make better tomatoes. So, varieties you did not think were the best at the outset may turn out to be absolutely terrific after your soil has been worked for years.

[Ed of Somis]

Interesting subject and comments here...It almost sounds like to me that you are kind of asking the question: Will tomatoes evolve over time and adapt to an environment? Is that an accurate statement? I think KarenO kind of stated it best. Not that most of us are dodging the questions like this...but over the years you just notice so many variables that affect tomato results. I am learning to tweak different things (some small...some big) to improve my performance. (Cole has basically confirmed this in his tomato journey)

[joseph]

Originally Posted by AlittleSalt

Do you get better tomatoes in years to come from saving the seeds from the Heirloom crops you grew in your soil and then planting them each year or season?

I think that there are many factors involved...

Growers tend to get better at growing in a particular area so they can tend to harvest better crops.

There are epigentic factors at play which turn on certain genes to deal with the environment. These ways of dealing with a particular environment can get passed on to the offspring without changing the DNA sequencing. These changes are subtle and are of useful but limited value in improving a crop. This factor is sometimes noticeable in cloned crops like garlic.

Another less subtle way of improving a strain for a particular garden is to pay attention to which individuals grow best, and saving seeds from them in hopes that they are more genetically suited to the environment. (I write "hopes" because subtle differences in environment between near clones can lead to big differences in performance.) Saving seeds from the best parents works best with genetically diverse populations. The more diversity the quicker the improvement from year to year... The most conservative definition of heirloom requires that the variety be 50 years old (or 60). That is a lot of generations of inbreeding. Inbreeding leads to loss of genetic diversity and makes it harder for a variety to grow well and adapt to changing growing conditions. But no matter how inbred a variety is, there is still some diversity left albeit perhaps very little. So there is room for improvement. But by saving seed only from the best parents while practicing strict isolation you are causing further inbreeding of the variety, and thus further limiting it's ability to adapt to change.

In my garden I have adopted a similar strategy. I save seeds each year from the most precocious and best producing plants, but I do not isolate varieties. Therefore I watch closely for the appearance of naturally occurring hybrids. Then I give the natural hybrids priority treatment next growing season, and select among the offspring for those that do best considering my habits and environment. This sort of strategy leads to dramatic improvement in the crop in a short time because there is much more diversity available to throw at the problem of growing great tomatoes in my garden. Offspring tend to resemble their parents. So even if I don't know who's the daddy, I know that it's a plant that is also thriving in my garden. Having two great parents is likely to lead to lots of great offspring. On the other hand I get about a 95% failure rates when trying new tomato varieties from far away.

I don't value heirloom stories, but they could be retained by adopting a maternal genealogy mindset. "We don't know anything about who's the daddy, but the matriarchal line is from _____". Jagodka is a tomato variety from my garden which was collected in Russia. The version I am growing has specimens in it which are off-type. I still collect seed from them. If I ever share seed from the variety again I expect to label it от'Jagodka. от is a Russian language prefix that means derived from... In the Irish tradition it would be written as O'Jagodka.

To answer the original question more directly... I almost always get better growth and productivity, in all crops, by planting my own saved seeds than I do from buying seeds from far away.

[Worth1]

You cant weed out varieties because of where they came from.
I have yet to see a cherry tomato that doesn't do well here in Texas.
One exception is Isis Candy.
For some reason I never get one to grow here.
It seems as though it is doomed to failure from some sort of disaster in its infancy before it even gets a chance.
Bug, worm, cat, big stick falling on it and killing it.
I know for a fact that Craig's new book coming out will be a great wealth of information for you.
He asked many people from all over the USA and abroad what they did with tomatoes in their area.

This is one of the first times I have ever seen this in a gardening book.

Gregori's Alti is a tomato from Siberia and one of the best tomatoes you can grow here in Texas.

Why you may ask would a person want to grow a tomato from a cold area in Texas?
Days to maturity is why.
What you get is early tomatoes before the heat sets in.
On average here in Texas the early tomatoes from the colder climates do better here.
So plant as many as you want along with the smaller fruited tomatoes for later on.
Want a black tomato that will taste great and be abundant for a long time?
try Black Plum.
A bi color paste that does great?
Speckled Roman.
Orange banana did fantastic for me.
A green that is for sure to knock your socks off and be easy to handle?
Lime green salad.
Want big tomatoes for slicing?
Try just about any early determinate and bush/dwarf tomato.
As the summer gets hotter your smaller tomatoes on down to cherry but not excluding a little lager will do great.
Then in the heat you will be able to treat yourself to cherries.
Extreme heat grow a few wild cherries as they will at least let you have a fresh tomato to snack on when everything else has given up.
In this manner I have been able to eat a tomato of some sort here in Texas from late April early May through frost.
On a personal note.
I in my opinion I dont think we live long enough to get a tomato to acclimate to our environment.
It already happened and it is called wild cherry.

Worth

[AlittleSalt]

Originally Posted by Ed of Somis

Interesting subject and comments here...It almost sounds like to me that you are kind of asking the question: Will tomatoes evolve over time and adapt to an environment? Is that an accurate statement? I think KarenO kind of stated it best. Not that most of us are dodging the questions like this...but over the years you just notice so many variables that affect tomato results. I am learning to tweak different things (some small...some big) to improve my performance. (Cole has basically confirmed this in his tomato journey)

Yes, I am asking if tomatoes adapt and even evolve to the soil type and environment as well.

[AlittleSalt]

Thank you everyone for replying. You have given me a lot to think about.

Part of my overall question comes from something I have watched happening in my garden over the past 4 years. Back in 2010, in my first garden, all I really knew is that seeds grow in dirt. I planted seeds from Walmart and transplants. For our black eyed peas that year, I planted seeds from a bag of grocery store peas. They barely grew enough plants to save seeds from that year. Over the past 3 years, I have planted the black eyed pea seeds I grew the year before. Each year, the plants have improved, and this year, they look and taste great.

Hopefully, the paragraph above is written well enough. My doctor prescribed a lot of medicine for the ear infections I have today.

[aclum]

Hi,

You might want to check out this thread:

http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=32387

about "adaptation to the garden" that I started a while back.

Anne

[Fred Hempel]

The "variety" doesn't adapt.

But, it is common for people to select the "best-adapted" plant(s) from the population when saving seed (most vigorous, best tasting, etc.)

Thus it is no surprise when the "variety" -- which has been selected by the gardener is more "adapted"

The engine for the changes are unseen genetic diversity in the original "variety" and mutation.

I also think that people learning to garden, and building soil results in improvements that may be attributed to "adaptation" but may be the result of better conditions.

[AlittleSalt]

Fred Hempel, I cannot agree more about people learning to garden and building soil. That is how I am learning to turn basic blow-silt/sand and clay into a plant growing medium. I think it is exciting that new and seasoned gardeners are building better soil. It is a huge step in the right direction for future gardeners as well.

[carolyn137]

I do suggest that folks look at the link that Anne put up in post #8 for more information.

And also agree with Worth's post above on the lack of regional adaptation.

Go to any nursery in S Cal or FL or other southern states and you'll see plenty of short season varieties available for Fall planting, and many of them from Siberia.

Sibererian summers are really hot and not all ones out of Siberia are small red ones. Just look at all the wonderful ones that Bill McDorman brought back when he was first to go to Siberia and bring back some varieties.

Craig ( nctomatoman) and I bought all of them and shared the seeds.

Tania doesn't have Siberian ones listed seperately, but you can find many looking at her listings for Russian ones.

Seeds Trust/ High Altitide was the first to offer McDorman's ones he brought back and they still list some of them, you have to scroll down to where the first word is Siberian.

http://secure.seedstrust.com/index.p...0&limitstart=0

And one of my faves he brought back, along with Mother Russia and Galina was:

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/w...733;%27s_Plume

with one of the more interesting names I've seen.

Many he brought back were in the 1-2 #range.

So don't think of all Siberian varieties to be cold adapted.

Carolyn