Says heirloom...but not really.

[Worth1]

How can I let this pass without putting in my 2 cents worth.
The first question that started all of this was about heirloom tomatoes.
You asked, how could they allow a tomato to be called an heirloom when it isn't?
Who is or are they?
No one, 'There isn't any group or government entity that regulates this.
Therefor there is no law and so no fraud so we have no heirloom police.
There is no set standard for what an heirloom is only a generalization as to what it should be with many opinions.
You cant have laws regulating opinions and generalization.

As for hybrid and GMO, they are two totally different things.
A hybrid is bred between two or more different varieties and a GMO is developed in the lab.
With this I could see a GMO being called an heirloom if it had genes inserted into it to kill horn worms.
It could be called an improved heirloom.
I could see a hybrid being called an heirloom if it had been around for 50 years or more, (which many have).

So with that said just because something is called an heirloom doesn't mean it is open pollinated.
People think it is and it should be but there is no law regarding this.

An open pollinated plant is what we expect to save seeds from and get the same thing in return on the next planting.
So your honor I respectfully asked that the case be dismissed.

Next case.

Hoopla over organics.
What the law states and what the buyer expects are two different things.
The buyer expects his or her produce to be pesticide free and grown in an environment with no chemicals.
The organic buyer expects the produce to be simply grown with as little if not any outside influence.
But that is impossible as the world is made up of chemicals.
They are all around us.
Then there are the pathogens and worm eggs found in manure that gets put on crops.
I personally dont want to eat raw spinach that has had hog flop on it or around it ever.

I think there should be a big sign up at the entrance to farmers markets.
With a paper to sign before folks come in.
It should explain what organic is and what can be used on the crops.
Then they sign a paper stating they wont aggravate the sellers by asking them what they use to grow the produce.

There is no way I could sit there an get crass examined buy these folks.

For entertainment this is how it would go.
Self righteous buyer, "So what do you use on your tomato plants that you are calling organic.
Me, "BT as a method ti kill worms".
Buyer, "So you aren't growing organically".
Me, "BT is organic".
Buyer, "I dont want to buy anything that has had chemicals on it".

Me, "So before you leave let me ask you about your cell phone".
Did you know that the chemicals used to make your phone end up in the rivers and oceans only to pollute the rest of the world.
So your telling me since you are rich enough to buy organic produce and drink filtered water.
You dont care how the poor in the USA or other countries live as long as you have your phone.
You recycle your electronics being the good little person you are only to have the stuff end up in a third world country to pollute there.
You live in a gated community and send your kids to a private school sheltering yourself from the rest of the worlds problems.
But yet you have the gall to ridicule me for using BT on my tomatoes.

Look I'm not downing anyone here it is just an exercise in reality.

I have tried to go to these so called events and I just cant stand it.
The hypocrisy is just too much for me.

Worth

[Fred Hempel]

Hmmm...

New business idea. Organic cell phones...

[Geezer]

Originally Posted by Worth1

I have tried to go to these so called events and I just cant stand it.
The hypocrisy is just too much for me.

Worth

Mebbe so, but I'd pay good money for a ticket to watch the show when you lock horns with 'em!

I'll bring the popcorn!

[Wi-sunflower]

Worth, I know exactly what you mean and feel as I feel much the same way.

At the market I go to there are a lot of vendors that are "certified organic" and charge 1/2 again if not twice as much as I do for much of their produce. For many people the "logic" is - well they have to pay more for all the hand labor for cultivation and other things that other farmers do with chemicals.

That's a lot of BS.

I don't generally use any herbicides (most don't work worth a darn anyway) so I do a whole lot of cultivation too

I also know that at least some of those "CO" growers use some of the new organic approved pesticides as they have told me they do.

Personally I call myself a "minimalist". Yes I know that has no legal meaning but when I get a chance to talk to people about it, many like that way of doing things. And it's definitely better for them than the "organic" grower I knew that regularly bought much of his stuff from the big wholesale grower that used tons of chemicals yet (the organic guy) passed off all his stuff as organic.

We use as little as possible to get a decent crop whether it's organic or chemical. Whatever we need to get the crop. Last year that was only 1 spray of BT on the cole crops as the loopers were nearly nonexistent and some Sevin dust on the zucchini right after germination so the cucumber beetles wouldn't eat the plants to death. We use a bit of Roundup in wipe wands to kill the weeds the cultivator can't get but often just work around the weeds. Almost ALL of our fertilizer is organic but is a type not approved by any of the certifying groups. What would that be you ask ?? Milorganite by the semi load.

At the market I charge what I feel is a fair price for ME AND for my customers. I'm not the lowest on some of my stuff but I'm sure not the highest like those CO growers.

This year we have had to use a bit more BT and some grass herbicide on a couple of fields planted behind wheat that regrew. The first herbicide we've used in many years other than the wipe on Roundup.

Carol

[JLJ_]

Originally Posted by Wi-sunflower

. . . We use a bit of Roundup in wipe wands to kill the weeds the cultivator can't get . . .

I'd never heard of wipe wands -- looked into them a bit, found a lot of variation, and thought you'd probably have some tips. I haven't used Roundup anywhere in years, but there are a few really nasty weeds that don't respond to other methods -- if there was a way to focus the Roundup . . . or something else . . . just on them . . .

And, er, the nasty weeds say they are heirlooms, but I say "Not really!" (just keeping on thread topic. )

[Barbee]

Originally Posted by JLJ_

I'd never heard of wipe wands -- looked into them a bit, found a lot of variation, and thought you'd probably have some tips. I haven't used Roundup anywhere in years, but there are a few really nasty weeds that don't respond to other methods -- if there was a way to focus the Roundup . . . or something else . . . just on them . . .

And, er, the nasty weeds say they are heirlooms, but I say "Not really!" (just keeping on thread topic. )

This is what I use in tight areas. WeedBlaster Pro

[drew51]

Originally Posted by Wi-sunflower

Actually "Organic" in the Garden biz DOES have a very exact definition --

I would 100% disagree. The term has no legal definition really, and what one calls organic others do not. Define chemical? Organic pesticides are chemicals.
So does organic mean without organic pesticides? Not the place, but the term organic is a total joke. I do know what you mean, but it's a very bad term. As a lab tech I can't stand the improper use of the word. It has nothing to do with gardening, another term is needed. Agent Orange is organic in my book, and always will be. Current chemistry teachings agree with me. So using this word to mean something else was a super bad choice of words. You can't ever define the term as chemists need to know what's really organic. The word is too important to give to gardening. So it will never be legally defined.

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by drew51

I would 100% disagree. The term has no legal definition really, and what one calls organic others do not. Define chemical? Organic pesticides are chemicals.
So does organic mean without organic pesticides? Not the place, but the term organic is a total joke. I do know what you mean, but it's a very bad term. As a lab tech I can't stand the improper use of the word. It has nothing to do with gardening, another term is needed. Agent Orange is organic in my book, and always will be. Current chemistry teachings agree with me. So using this word to mean something else was a super bad choice of words. You can't ever define the term as chemists need to know what's really organic. The word is too important to give to gardening. So it will never be legally defined.

They have a section in research at DOW chemical that says organics.
It isn't anything you would want to put in your garden.

Worth

[drew51]

Originally Posted by Worth1

They have a section in research at DOW chemical that says organics.
It isn't anything you would want to put in your garden.

Worth

LOL! Your post earlier in the thread says it all. You put it much better than I.

"Natural" is another word totally abused. As I type this I'm absorbing chemicals thrown off my keyboard. This is a good thing. Humans with genes that cannot take the chemical exposure will succumb leaving better adapted humans. Natural selection in all it's beauty. Then again no stopping the fact we will become extinct, either from our own demise, or natural selection. As we become something that can no longer be called Homo sapien. Either/or will happen at some point. Nothing is forever including the sun itself.