Silly Question

[dmforcier]

What are the odds of getting a true copy from a hybrid? For instance, a couple years ago I received seeds of "7 Pot Primo", purported to be a hybrid developed by Tony Primeaux. (I didn't get the seeds from him, but from someone who grew the variety.) My surviving plant looks and produces just what I would expect from Tony's. (Anyone want a peck of Primos?)

What are the odds that its seeds will produce true? Or is there no way to know without knowing the traits bred for?

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BTW, to be clear, I'm not confused by the meaning of "OP" as used in this community. I'm just wondering how a term indicating potential sexual promiscuity came to mean "generational stability"?



Consider the case of Fred Farkel and Ferd Berfel. Fred is exposed - willing or not - to promiscuity; As a result, none of his children look like him.

[NarnianGarden]

dm LOL Mighty ethical questions. I think you're comparing apple and oranges here .. It's a different metaphysics when plants are concerned: their job, so to speak, is to be open to new innovations/mutations and ensure their genetic survival.
Their life is to reproduce and survive - of course, some humans live at that as their goal, too, and are not too concerned about other dimensions in life.

[Cole_Robbie]

I would think that any operation that large would be making hybrid seed. OP seed is so cheap by comparison, and there is a limited market for selling it.

I just glanced at Morgan County's Catalog. They will sell you a pound of Rutgers seed for $60. Their largest quantity of Big Beef is 5,000 seeds, and they want $150. There are roughly 150,000 seeds in a pound, so that's only 1/30th of a pound. I wish my seed collection was worth $4,500/lb.

[carolyn137]

Here is a MUST read thread for those having questions re dehybridizing varieties,whether they be from F1's or the result of X pollination

http://forums.gardenweb.com/discussi...ossible-hybrid

You'll see several references there to Keith Muellers superb website and I think a link where you need to go to understand genetic segregation, and he also says how many generations are needed to stabilize a dehybridization. Look around at all the other info there and links,you must say I and all the excellent varieties that Keith has bred,you should know them if you don't already..

I've successfully dehybridized several F1's,perhaps the best known one is

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Ramapo_F1

which is the original, and now the dehybridized version

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/Ramapo

Tania says Ed helped dehybridize it but he didn't since the F3 seeds were already stable Op's and Ed knew it since he was originally from NJ and was a commercial tomato grower and already knew Ramapo F1 very well.Ed subsequently moved to VT where he was with homeland security on the Canadian border.

In the first link I gave above,the two varieties that were crossed to create Ramapo F1 are given,it's an interesting story.

Another one I dehybridized is the following

Craig L,nctomatoman here at TV had sent seeds of Yellow Brandywine to someone and the person sent back seeds that gave RED fruits,so clearly X pollination in Craig's garden. I had a large field to myself for growing tomatoes, he didn't so he sent the seeds to me. i had to go out to the F7 before I got it stable and Craig and I named it

http://tatianastomatobase.com/wiki/B..._(Off_The_Vine)

When dehybridizing it is crucial to grow both the original F1 at the same time as what you are dehybrizing and doing so with every selection you make.

With Ramapo I had a problem since the F1 had gone out of production,others knew it and had sandbagged some F1 seed,thank heaven's and sent to me.

Just a few more comments.There are no tomatoes that show complete resistance to any disease,the operative word is tolerance. That happened when some large scale commercial farmers bought seed that was supposed to be resistant to diseases xyz , etc, but weren't and they sued the seed producer and won.At that point the US tomato association,or whatever they called themselves, urged all to use the word tolernt, but many refused to do that. So you still see tomatoes listed as resistant to whatever,which is wrong.

I hope the above helps,

Carolyn, 77 and still not in heaven.

[dmforcier]

Originally Posted by NarnianGarden

Mighty ethical questions. I think you're comparing apple and oranges here .. It's a different metaphysics when plants are concerned: their job, so to speak, is to be open to new innovations/mutations and ensure their genetic survival.
Their life is to reproduce and survive - of course, some humans live at that as their goal, too, and are not too concerned about other dimensions in life.

Mmm. Is there irony in discussing plant metaphysics under the topic Silly Question?

Still, I supposed that even Aquinas would punt on this question...

[gorbelly]

[gorbelly]

Originally Posted by dmforcier

BTW, to be clear, I'm not confused by the meaning of "OP" as used in this community. I'm just wondering how a term indicating potential sexual promiscuity came to mean "generational stability"?

Think of it as two separate terms.

"Open" = "allowing access".

This can be more literal, as in allowing various mechanisms of pollination access to reproductive parts. Or it can be more figurative, in the sense of "allowing access to breeding control", i.e., in the sense of "open source", i.e., the average person does not need access to proprietary information or methods to reproduce a variety; the genome is "open" for them to access through amateur and transparent methods.

[Gardeneer]

Originally Posted by gorbelly

Think of it as two separate terms.

"Open" = "allowing access".

This can be more literal, as in allowing various mechanisms of pollination access to reproductive parts. Or it can be more figurative, in the sense of "allowing access to breeding control", i.e., in the sense of "open source", i.e., the average person does not need access to proprietary information or methods to reproduce a variety; the genome is "open" for them to access through amateur and transparent methods.

Good explanation Gor,

On the difference between OP and HEIRLOOM, technically there is no difference other than history. A Heirloom is also Open Pollinated (OP)

[brownrexx]

Carolyn gives some really good information and here is a quote from the Keith Mueller website that she mentions "it is nearly impossible to grow enough plants to best represent the original hybrid"

What this means is that YES, you can dehybridize a hybrid BUT you will most likely not get the exact same characteristics as the original hybrid that you started with due to all of the possible gene combinations.

I see postings all of the time from people who think that they are dehybridizing something like Big Beef just so that they can say that it is OP and they can save seeds. They grow one or two plants each season and call that F2, F3 etc and when they get out several seasons they declare that they have successfully dehybridized Big Beef. this is not the case.

I think that Carolyn would agree that in order to dehybridize a hybrid you will need to grow hundreds of plants each season not just a few.

[gorbelly]

Originally Posted by Gardeneer

On the difference between OP and HEIRLOOM, technically there is no difference other than history. A Heirloom is also Open Pollinated (OP)

Personally, I'd rather see "historical" used as the descriptor. "Heirloom" does sound more romantic, but let's face it, many of those varieties are not actually passed down in a family for generations--many are commercial or regional and preserved by seed companies and/or governments--and few recent OPs are likely to become "heirloom" because fewer and fewer families are agrarian and tied to the land. Nevertheless, some of these recent varieties may stick around for many years because they're good varieties that people like, preserved by seed preservationists and governments. Some could conceivably become very old without ever becoming "heirlooms".

[NarnianGarden]

Originally Posted by dmforcier

Mmm. Is there irony in discussing plant metaphysics under the topic Silly Question?

Still, I supposed that even Aquinas would punt on this question...

Probably Thomas of A would consider anything to do wth God's creation a highly relevant topic and worth contemplating

[Nan_PA_6b]

Originally Posted by brownrexx

Carolyn gives some really good information and here is a quote from the Keith Mueller website that she mentions "it is nearly impossible to grow enough plants to best represent the original hybrid"

What this means is that YES, you can dehybridize a hybrid BUT you will most likely not get the exact same characteristics as the original hybrid that you started with due to all of the possible gene combinations.

Amen! And one of the attributes likely to be lost is the disease resistance of the original hybrid, since it's almost impossible to select for. This is my main objection to dehybridizing. I'll happily buy the hybrid seeds to get the resistance.

Nan

[PaulF]

And I say again, the only disease problems in my tomato garden has been when I have tried a hybrid that sounded interesting. Seems like I never learn. So I will stick with the 'non-selected for disease resistance' OPs.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by Nan_PA_6b

Amen! And one of the attributes likely to be lost is the disease resistance of the original hybrid, since it's almost impossible to select for. This is my main objection to dehybridizing. I'll happily buy the hybrid seeds to get the resistance.

Nan

Yes, what seems to be most important for many folks are diseases resistant/tolerant genes that may be lost.

But you are in PA, I know many in PA who growtomatoes, so which tomato diseases do you have most years that you think hybrd seed is best for you. The followup being it looks like perhaps you don't grow many heirloom varieties since few have such genes.

And I know this is a loaded question, nevertheless answerable.

Carolyn