Heirlooms are Stabilized Hybrids. - Page 3

OmahaJB · July 7, 2007

It was probably a little more than a year ago I read an OP/Heirloom thread on GW. Someone who posted mentioned that OP's can also be referred to as Heirlooms once they have been around for 50 years. Being new to all of this I just took it as fact I guess.

I haven't read the new thread on GW regarding this issue so I don't know what information the debate included. It would be nice if varieties with long histories could wear the title of 'Heirloom' if the 'tomato growing society' could come up with a universal agreement on the number of years a variety would have to be around to be so named. 50 years? 30 years?

For practical purposes it really only matters if a variety is OP or a Hybrid. Like someone else said, can I save seed and get the same result from it?

Jeff

bbjm · July 7, 2007

My wife was quizing me about heirloom tomatoes. I explained to her that many have been grown by families for generations. We had just picked a Sungold and a Yellow Pear. I told her the Yellow Pear was an heirloom. After putting the Yellow Pear in her mouth, my wife wrinkled her nose and said "Oh my God! That poor family!"

Mantis · July 8, 2007

LOL Imagine that family tasting a Brandywine

lumierefrere · July 8, 2007

If you're trying to communicate an idea to a person who only knows supermarket tomatoes, using the term open pollinated is futile. It's an excellent term to use for a gardener. The term heirloom no matter how loose and abused it is at this point does convey a notion to those outside the community. The notion is probably over-romanticized but still conjures up images of a delicious,sun-warmed tomato redolent of family and history rather than hard, pink, tasteless fruit served up in shrinkwrap. Thus I perceive "heirloom" as shorthand when I don't want people to glaze over with explanations of seed saving and such that they don't understand and won't remember.

feldon30 · July 8, 2007

That is also why I use the word "heirloom" even if the definition is a moving target. Because "open pollinated" elicits a deer-in-headlights response. If they're still awake after a minute or two of talking about tomato varieties, then I will bring in the "you can save seed and get the same tomato the following year, unlike these modern scientifically bred hybrids".

domoarimato · July 8, 2007

Seems that people in the UK prefer "heritage" to "heirloom" much in the same way that they prefer "cordon" to indeterminate. Sounds fine to me... However, I will never be able to call an eggplant an "Aubergine"???? To me that's a color, and not a very attractive one at that!

johno · August 8, 2007

Having worked in an heirloom seed shop for a few months, I have had to attempt explaining "what is an heirloom?" dozens, if not hundreds of times (didn't count...) I like Feldon's description of the "deer-in-the-headlights" look - and I usually also end up trying to explain the OP/hybrid differentiation.

Everyone's responses here make sense. I have especially benefitted from the explanation in Carolyn's book. I've never been exactly clear just where Carolyn and Craig differ - so if you guys want to weigh in once again, sigh...

Anyway, The local Master Gardeners club wants me to give a talk on Heirlooms.

I am very interested in stories and histories of any heirloom vegetables that have been handed down from one generation to another. I'm sure we'll get into this discussion as well, but I think they want to be entertained with some good stories. So, if anyone can help me out with this (-ahem, Big Red-) your stories would be most helpful.

On another note, I have developed quite a personal interest in newer creations, such as those by Wild Boar Farm, Tom Wagner, some of those Craig has offered, and so forth. Can anyone help me beef up my list of sources fro these? Sorry if this request is wandering off topic...

bugsy · September 7, 2007

I really find the word "heirloom" pretty useless. I go to the farmers market sometimes and all the tomatoes are apparently "heirloom tomatoes". For example, I saw Cherokee Chocolate listed as an heirloom tomato (saw this in Santa Cruz farmer's market, no mention of Craig). I also find it interesting that a good number of the "heirlooms" they sell are only a couple of decades old if that. I'm not even sure if the sellers are aware of/care about the hybrid/op difference. thus far, I have not seen Early Girl sold as an heirloom tomato. Not yet anyway.

I'm leery of saving seeds from a farmer's market tomato for these reasons.

Raymondo · September 7, 2007

Know what you mean. Here, Green Zebra is often described as an heirloom! I avoid the term, preferring to use heritage instead.

palerider · September 7, 2007

I also prefer the term heritage. It evokes the thought in me that I wish it to be handed on in keeping with the heritage of tomatoes. heirloom sounds like an old clock
We could go completely P.C. and say Multi Generational?
As someone else so eruditely pointed out, Yellow Pear is an heirloom. A bit like the old clock, I wouldn't want that handed down as the tomato of a generation.
There are far greater examples, surely?.

July 7, 2007	#31
OmahaJB Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Toledo, OH Posts: 1,821	Heirlooms are stabilized hybrids It was probably a little more than a year ago I read an OP/Heirloom thread on GW. Someone who posted mentioned that OP's can also be referred to as Heirlooms once they have been around for 50 years. Being new to all of this I just took it as fact I guess. I haven't read the new thread on GW regarding this issue so I don't know what information the debate included. It would be nice if varieties with long histories could wear the title of 'Heirloom' if the 'tomato growing society' could come up with a universal agreement on the number of years a variety would have to be around to be so named. 50 years? 30 years? For practical purposes it really only matters if a variety is OP or a Hybrid. Like someone else said, can I save seed and get the same result from it? Jeff Last edited by OmahaJB; July 7, 2007 at 08:11 PM. Reason: Correct a word

July 8, 2007	#35
feldon30 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2006 Location: Rock Hill, SC Posts: 5,346	That is also why I use the word "heirloom" even if the definition is a moving target. Because "open pollinated" elicits a deer-in-headlights response. If they're still awake after a minute or two of talking about tomato varieties, then I will bring in the "you can save seed and get the same tomato the following year, unlike these modern scientifically bred hybrids". __________________ [SIZE="3"]I've relaunched my gardening website -- [B]TheUnconventionalTomato.com[/B][/SIZE] * [I][SIZE="1"]*I'm not allowed to post weblinks so you'll have to copy-paste it manually.[/SIZE][/I]

September 7, 2007	#39
Raymondo Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Saumarez Ponds, NSW, Australia Posts: 946	Know what you mean. Here, Green Zebra is often described as an heirloom! I avoid the term, preferring to use heritage instead. __________________ Ray

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July 7, 2007	#32
bbjm Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Kansas Posts: 155	My wife was quizing me about heirloom tomatoes. I explained to her that many have been grown by families for generations. We had just picked a Sungold and a Yellow Pear. I told her the Yellow Pear was an heirloom. After putting the Yellow Pear in her mouth, my wife wrinkled her nose and said "Oh my God! That poor family!"

July 8, 2007	#33
Mantis Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Oz Posts: 1,241	LOL Imagine that family tasting a Brandywine

July 8, 2007	#34
lumierefrere Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Zone 4 NY Posts: 772	If you're trying to communicate an idea to a person who only knows supermarket tomatoes, using the term open pollinated is futile. It's an excellent term to use for a gardener. The term heirloom no matter how loose and abused it is at this point does convey a notion to those outside the community. The notion is probably over-romanticized but still conjures up images of a delicious,sun-warmed tomato redolent of family and history rather than hard, pink, tasteless fruit served up in shrinkwrap. Thus I perceive "heirloom" as shorthand when I don't want people to glaze over with explanations of seed saving and such that they don't understand and won't remember.

July 8, 2007	#36
domoarimato Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 29	Seems that people in the UK prefer "heritage" to "heirloom" much in the same way that they prefer "cordon" to indeterminate. Sounds fine to me... However, I will never be able to call an eggplant an "Aubergine"???? To me that's a color, and not a very attractive one at that!

August 8, 2007	#37
johno Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Arkansas zone 6b Posts: 441	Having worked in an heirloom seed shop for a few months, I have had to attempt explaining "what is an heirloom?" dozens, if not hundreds of times (didn't count...) I like Feldon's description of the "deer-in-the-headlights" look - and I usually also end up trying to explain the OP/hybrid differentiation. Everyone's responses here make sense. I have especially benefitted from the explanation in Carolyn's book. I've never been exactly clear just where Carolyn and Craig differ - so if you guys want to weigh in once again, sigh... Anyway, The local Master Gardeners club wants me to give a talk on Heirlooms. I am very interested in stories and histories of any heirloom vegetables that have been handed down from one generation to another. I'm sure we'll get into this discussion as well, but I think they want to be entertained with some good stories. So, if anyone can help me out with this (-ahem, Big Red-) your stories would be most helpful. On another note, I have developed quite a personal interest in newer creations, such as those by Wild Boar Farm, Tom Wagner, some of those Craig has offered, and so forth. Can anyone help me beef up my list of sources fro these? Sorry if this request is wandering off topic...

September 7, 2007	#38
bugsy Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2006 Location: Zone 10b Posts: 67	I really find the word "heirloom" pretty useless. I go to the farmers market sometimes and all the tomatoes are apparently "heirloom tomatoes". For example, I saw Cherokee Chocolate listed as an heirloom tomato (saw this in Santa Cruz farmer's market, no mention of Craig). I also find it interesting that a good number of the "heirlooms" they sell are only a couple of decades old if that. I'm not even sure if the sellers are aware of/care about the hybrid/op difference. thus far, I have not seen Early Girl sold as an heirloom tomato. Not yet anyway. I'm leery of saving seeds from a farmer's market tomato for these reasons.

September 7, 2007	#40
palerider Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: new england, australia Posts: 18	I also prefer the term heritage. It evokes the thought in me that I wish it to be handed on in keeping with the heritage of tomatoes. heirloom sounds like an old clock We could go completely P.C. and say Multi Generational? As someone else so eruditely pointed out, Yellow Pear is an heirloom. A bit like the old clock, I wouldn't want that handed down as the tomato of a generation. There are far greater examples, surely?.