Wins All / Winsall

[barkeater]

Last year I grew Winsall from Totally Tomatoes and it was a fantastic tomato, the best new one in the garden. Winsall was like an earlier, more productive, round Brandywine.

It was even potato leaf like Brandywine. Then I come to find out Winsall is supposed to be regular leaf!

So what do I have? Is it a cross, or is it a true potato leaf version of regular Winsall?

If it is a cross, I want it to be stable, whatever it is, as it is one of my top 10 favorites now. The good news is, I started 8 seeds from the TT pack, and they are 100% potato leaf.

I also picked up Winsall seed from Sandhill, and all 5 are regular leaf. So now I can do a side by side comparison.

My question is, if the fruit of both are exactly the same in form and taste, does that confirm it is a
Winsall PL?

If they are not the same, but the PL this year is exactly the same as the PL Winsall last year, does that mean I have a hybrid and if I save seeds, it won't come true?

And if it did, what would you call it? Would it be Faux Winsall, like the Faux Boxcar Willie TT sells?

[dice]

If they are not the same, but the PL this year is exactly
the same as the PL Winsall last year, does that mean I have a
hybrid and if I save seeds, it won't come true?

I would think that would mean that it is not Winsall (which
should have fruit very similar to Beefsteak and Delicious),
but you won't know if it is stable or not unless you grow
several plants from saved seed (bagged, to eliminate crossing
in your own garden as a variable) and compare them to
the plants from the TT packet. If they are identical, plant and
fruit, it is stable.

If they vary quite a lot, the TT seeds were likely crossed,
but they still were not Winsall x unknown_PL F1, which
would produce RL plants. The only F1s where you would
get PL are PL X PL, or perhaps PL x some_unusual_leaf_type,
both of which would eliminate Winsall as a parent of the F1.

My guess would be that it is some completely different
cultivar that just happens to be excellent. You could
call it "TT Mystery Red PL" until someone grows it
side-by-side with whatever it was before the seed mixup
at TT or one of their seed suppliers, and its original name
is revealed.

[carolyn137]

Bark, what color were the fruits since you didn't mention that.

I was wondering since Dice suggested:

(call it "TT Mystery Red PL" )

And if it's red it sure isn't Wins All.

I agree that perhaps a better way to know what you have is to compare your TT PL's with Sandhill's RL's. At this point every seed from TT has given a PL plant so I don't think saved seed from your PL plant of last year is going to give you anything different unless there was a X pollination in your gaden with it last year.

Mutation from a RL to a PL isn't all that common and the chances of a seed supplier finding a plant in the Wins All's row that had PL foliage and getting ALL PL foliage in terms of seed production when seeds from MANY W plants has to be processed for commercial seed is wayyyyy down on my list of possibilities.

So what I'm saying, is that I don't think you have a PL version of Wins All, rather, I think that the PL seeds you got from TT are something else and there would be no way to ID it.

[Lilypon]

Barkeater I'd be tickled pink (or red) to try a few seeds....did you save any? (I'm constantly on the lookout for a plant that will produce great tomatoes in my short growing season) I grew Delicious a couple of years ago and was very impressed by it (I wish I had taken a picture of the plant...I wasn't into recording RL or PL then or saving seeds). All I do know is it was one of the best tasting maters I've grown (I purchased the plant in Medicine Hat, AB so I have no idea where the seeds came from).

This was the colour of my fruit: http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/125649/

This picture showed how beautiful it was inside: http://davesgarden.com/guides/pf/showimage/125654/

[barkeater]

Yes Carolyn, the PL Winsall is pink. I didn't save seed from last year, I just started others from the original pack.

I'm sure it must be a mixup. If the real Winsall was as good as what I thought I had last year, it would be as famous as Brandywine. I will be very surprised if the fruit are the same as the Winsall I have from Sandhill.

[barkeater]

Lilypon,

Looks like we both replied at the same time. I would guess the same seeds TT are offering this year as Winsall are the same I got last year. Otherwise, I will be saving seeds this year, and if they produce the same as last, I'll definitely share.

[Lilypon]

Thank you so much Barkeater! I would really appreciate it if you would save seeds from yours....my luck would be that TT is now carrying the correctly packaged Wins ALL. Though I know it is also good!

20 + years ago my father planted seeds for Floramerica and they came up potato leaf. The fruit was huge and red and very, very flavourful (obviously it wasn't Floramerica). Dad, however, still buys Floramerica in hopes that he'll get that PL again (even with me explaining to him that the company packaged the wrong seeds and there are many, many varieties that it could have been) . Of course, for some reason or other , those PL Floramerica's haven't shown up yet (including under my lights this year....now he has me growing his Floramerica seeds).

Naturally I've been trying a number of red fruited PL's in hopes that we might find one that fits his memory of the elusive (and incorrectly named) Floramerica.

[Lilypon]

TT I'm pretty sure doesn't sell to Canadians either (though they certainly could).

[nctomatoman]

Winsall, which is how it was spelled when released by Henderson in 1924 (as an improvement on Ponderosa), is a regular leaf variety. Wins All is the spelling as it was sent to me by someone in western NC; it is likely that they translated the original seed into that particular way of writing it...I've grown both and they are identical as far as I can tell. If you got a PL plant, it is a cross or, more likely (since PL is recessive), someone's mix up or mislabel.

[barkeater]

If Totally Tomatoes did mix things up and mislabel Winsall, it isn't the first time. They might still be selling the wrong Box Car Willie 3 years after I bought it. Lot of people really like it too!

So, if it is likely a potato leaf pink that was mislabeled, I should be able to find it if I try a few along side of it each year. I mean, how many commercially available PL pinks can there be?

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by barkeater

If Totally Tomatoes did mix things up and mislabel Winsall, it isn't the first time. They might still be selling the wrong Box Car Willie 3 years after I bought it. Lot of people really like it too!

So, if it is likely a potato leaf pink that was mislabeled, I should be able to find it if I try a few along side of it each year. I mean, how many commercially available PL pinks can there be?

How many PL large pink varieties available commercially? I'd say probably close to 500 or so.

You're young, so go for it.

Bettre than that, when the rush of the season slows down why don't you ask Ruth ( username here as Jungseed) to direct you to someone who is involved with their seed acquisitions and see what you can find out.

So far it sounds like you're batting 100% on the seeds you've germinated being PL, and, as Craig pointed out and I said the same thing differently, if it were a X pollination your wouldn't be getting all PL's, b'c that trait is recessive.

As I said above, the chances of TT's seed supplier finding a single plant amongst others to be used for seed production that had had a different leaf form would be remote indeed.

Although I do know that my not fave SBD in CA uses laborers for seed production who probably don't know that much about checking each plant of a variety to be sure it's right before harvesting fruits for seed.

I don't know the origin of TT's seeds and in this case Wins All, so just mentioed SBD b'c I do know about them, having sent them many varieties when they first started up, and they are a wholesale supplier to many commercial places. SSE is also getting into the act in a major way by offering many more varieties from their commercial brochure, and while I didn't check it to see if Wins All was on the list, last I knew they check out almost all or probably all of their seed before offering it either retail thru the Public SSE catalog or wholesale to others.

[dice]

Ok, "TT Mystery Pink PL".

(I was mistakenly thinking that Winsall was a selection from
Beefsteak, like Delicious, both of which are red, rather than
from Ponderosa.)

Anyway, it sounds like a find, even it was not what you
ordered.