Is this little thing really what's destroyed my gardens?

[z_willus_d]

Originally Posted by beeman

Please don't 'bite my head off' for suggesting the following, but it strikes me there is something drastically wrong here, I have followed this post from the beginning.

Have you considered that all the spraying you have done, with some pretty fierce chemicals, might have killed off any beneficial bacteria.

It seems to me we need good guys to help combat the bad and ugly. We know the plants are dependant on beneficial bacteria in the soil to produce the sugars etc that the plants need to stay healthy. Is it possible you have destroyed most if not all the 'good guys', leading to an endless parade of 'bad guys'?

I do question 'Bills' bleach spray, surely he must be killing off a great deal of his soil bacteria, which doesn't make any sense to me.

I do know, where I live, that things are different, but my approach is totally different. Early in the spring I spray to supply the 'good guys' to all my planting, including all my berries and fruit trees. I do not get anything like the problems you do, a few aphids and that's it.

This year we've had endless wet, dull, warm weather, ideal for fungus etc, but to date nothing.

It's too late this year, but how about next year?

I use Biotamax. In a 5 gallon pail, add 1/2 cup molasses and brew with an air stone for at least 24/48 hours. My microscope tells me it's alive with bacteria when I spray or soil drench, and the difference in the plants is amazing, the yellowing disappears and bright green results, plus the plants look stronger.

Beeman, no head biting I promise. Until recently, I have been spraying quite frequently but always with an arangement of organic products, many of which are supposed to be fine for the beneficials; and some including them. I'm talking about things like Mycotrol O (a beneficial organism), Actinovate (another), BT, various oils (Azamax, Neem, Cedar, Mineral, Canola); compost teas (made with worm castings I produce myself, seaweed, and other goodies), and, yes, some less than optimal organics, like Spinosad, Pyrethren, Excel-LG, and this awful safer soap stuff. So, I agree that I've caused all kinds of damage with the safer soap / pyrethren combo. I'm not sure what to think about the other things I've sprayed, most of which should be additive rather than deleterious to my beneficial populations.

I actually also use Biota-Max, MycoGrow, Great White Mycos, and Actinovate in a couple soil drenches when I plant out. Each hole gets a handful of composted worm castings. In short, I'm right with you on all this stuff. I am only now going over to the dark side with this Mycobutinil spraying. Last year, it was less spraying in general, but all the same deadly results.

Ok, head hopefully still fully attached. You make very good points.
-naysen

[Paradajz]

hi again, guys.

Naysen, please forgive me for ''off topic-ing'' your thread, but i would like to create a small puzzle here. my wish to do so comes from the fact that i actually got to actively take part in this forum because of people like you and Steve- plant loving cosmopolitans sounds adequate as a description. BTW, my life and profession are closely connected to plants for almost 20 years now, and my original intention when coming here was to study and learn about the every day gardening of your country, or in other words, learn about the practices you use, without actually taking an active part in discussions.
the reason that changed my mind about it is the quantity of love for those plants i met here

but to cut the sentimental stuff, here's the puzzle ( with a reason ):
photos of what i have harvested in my family garden ( the one where i grow for us, there are others actually ) today attached. could you say what it is and what should i spray it with?

brandywine

[Paradajz]

...




crnkovic ( wellcome home )

[Paradajz]

and some close- ups



V. advice just after, sorry from the excursion from your thread

[Paradajz]

ok, about the famous V./no- V. issue.

N., just about each and every one of those chlorosis from your last set of photos have a clear V. signiture. at this point i'm almost 100% sure with your issue.
S., unfortunately your issue now appears quite more in the same direction as Naysen's. since those chlorosis are a bit less of a V. pattern ( without so clear visual of a distinctive ''V''- shape ) it would be good to know the status of the other side of those plants- does it exhibit the same kind of symptoms? also, you should monitor the fruit in the upper right part of the photos- speed and way of growth, changes of color, etc.

i also have to notice here that, apart from the symptoms, those are both amazingly looking plants, lots of time, efforts, tenderness and knowledge there, beautiful.
N., you did notice well that his plants look like a bit healthier than yours... but the correct word is actually not healthier, more like slightly better on nitrogen and phosphorus side. more over, if all the other factors in this equation would be identical for all those plants, his ones would be more sustainable to the disease, also with a slightly worse final prognosis.

have to go take some sleep, a tip on cure- procedure tomorrow

br

[tsipgolf12]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

Lyco, I forgot to comment in my long post last night that Sodium Bicarbonate (Baking Soda) is the standard, home remedy for powdery mildew, however there have been a number of studies suggesting it has limited effect on moderate to intense infestations. The similar class of chemical suggested is Sodium Bicarbonate (e.g. GreenCure), which is one of the products I have tried.
Thanks,
Naysen

GreenCure is potassium bicarbonate I believe.

[LDx4]

Originally Posted by Heritage

Lyn,

Eagle is diluted at 6oz/100 gal (using grape recommendations), and Innunox is diluted at 1 oz./gal, so I think the concentration of myclobutanil in the applied mixture would be similar in both products.


Steve

Thanks for clarifying that Steve! I did find the Immunox at Lowes, so I will be spraying tomorrow morning early.

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

Hi Lyn, it sounds like we're building up a pattern. The other thing I hate about that Safer soap is it tends to build up a residue in the tank mixer. It smells lousy, so I know it's there by the smell alone.

Hey, depending on how much you need (and assuming it's not illegal), I could probably mail you some of the Rally I purchased. I should have far more than I will need for years to come. Just PM me if you're interested.
-naysen

Naysen, thanks for the Rally offer! I did find the Immunox at Lowes today, so I'm set for the myclobutanil for now. I'll let you know if I might need some Rally in the future.

But, I'm already paying Steve's bail, so I might not be able to afford to pay for both you

Originally Posted by beeman

Have you considered that all the spraying you have done, with some pretty fierce chemicals, might have killed off any beneficial bacteria.

It seems to me we need good guys to help combat the bad and ugly. We know the plants are dependant on beneficial bacteria in the soil to produce the sugars etc that the plants need to stay healthy. Is it possible you have destroyed most if not all the 'good guys', leading to an endless parade of 'bad guys'?

I do know, where I live, that things are different, but my approach is totally different. Early in the spring I spray to supply the 'good guys' to all my planting, including all my berries and fruit trees. I do not get anything like the problems you do, a few aphids and that's it.

This year we've had endless wet, dull, warm weather, ideal for fungus etc, but to date nothing.

Beeman, where in Canada are you located? Do you get regular, below-zero freezes in the winter in your area? I ask because I think that part of the problem with living in some California climates is that we don't get that extreme cold weather in the winter, and I suspect that fungus etc. just overwinters here and then strikes again, full force each summer. I work to supply the "good guys" to my planting each year as you do, but in my garden the good guys are way overpowered by the "bad guys." And now with this especially bad year of disease, I'm just ready to throw in the towel and use some atomic methods.

I think Ivan mentioned this temperate climate problem in his original post when he described Montenegro. Perhaps he can chime in here too.

Thanks everyone for your help!

Lyn

[Heritage]

Ivan, thanks much for the thoughtful post... I love a puzzle, especially a tomato disease puzzle!

Do you have a photo (or description) of the underside of the leaf in the middle photo of the Brandywine series? Also, is the lesion on the Crnkovic leaf (upper left, of second photo of Crnkovic) a typical manifestation of the disease?

I will wait to give my guess until other have chimed in or have and asked their questions.

btw... which fungicide did you recently spray with? (maybe too much of a clue!)

Steve

[z_willus_d]

Originally Posted by tsipgolf12

GreenCure is potassium bicarbonate I believe.

Correct. I had a typo there. My point was that Green Cure is similar to Sodium Bicarbonate, but Potassium Bicarbonate and a better alternative for P.M. to the former by all that I've read.
Thanks for catching the error.
-naysen

[z_willus_d]

Ivan, I'm very glad to see you here and contributing as much as you have -- far better for us than a mute observer. As to your puzzler, you should know that I have yet to switch over from the pupil to the teacher. I seldom make suggestions, recommendations, or other specific guidance on diseases and the like here, as I just don't feel I'm in a position to direct others when I so clearly have continually failed to recognize and manage my own.

That's not to say I'm not intrigued by your puzzle post, especially since some of your pics seem to match my own. Steve, I too noticed the white droplets in Ivan's pics, suggesting some recent fungicide like spray -- looks like Daconil. But then, knowing Ivan's penchant for Verticillium diagnosis, I might select that bubble in a multiple choice. ... And it does seem like pic #1 in the 2nd series of Brandywine pics has a V-like shape to the yellowing at the tip of the leaf. The crnkovic shows those gray lesions that I didn't see on the Brandywine, and it makes me think they could be mold or mildew. But hey, someone far more learned than I can make a better guess. Heck, I don't really know what chlorosis means, not in practice at least.

So Ivan, on to my plants and the pics I just posted, I want to be clear that I wasn't trying to capture my yellowing, P.M. or V. or what-have-you issue in that series of photos I just posted. Those photos were posted solely to highlight the damage I inflicted on the plants with my Pyrethren/Safer-soap spray combo. I suppose some of the pics might provide some small glimpse into the real problem, but that wasn't the intent. I can post more up to date pics aimed at exposing the latest in the yellowing/browning/dying problem.

Thanks,
Naysen

[dice]

My impression is that if your plants have Verticillium, there is not
much you can do about it. It is in the soil. You may be able to
repress it for future years, but eradicating it in a plant already
infected is a no-go.

I had a Black Cherry plant (purchased at a nursery) planted in
a self-watering container one year. It developed what was clearly
verticillium. (I have it in spots in the garden, so I am familiar with
the symptoms.) I dropped a couple of aspirins in the reservoir,
as I did not know of anything else that might stimulate the plant's
immune system. No obvious effect.

Out of 4 or 5 branches, though, one remained symptom-free. I cut
off all of the stuff with drying up foliage and left that one uninfected
branch. It grew out normally and developed several clusters of fruit.
No off flavor.

Another year I had a Pipo plant in about a 4-5 gallon bottomless
nursery container develop the disease. It had a mixture of compost
and sand that had been piled on the ground over the winter for grow
media. That plant died entirely before the fruit got full-sized (for Pipo).

The next spring I dumped out the container, mixed in about half new
compost from a compost pile into the container mix, and refilled it.
Before I planted, I soil drenched it with a couple of gallons of
lime-sulfur, tablespoon per gallon.
( http://shop.horticultureguy.com/lime...spray-594.html )

I planted another Pipo seedling in the container. It grew normally
all season and never contracted the disease.

A one-plant sample, in ad-hoc container mix, is not something that
one can draw scientific conclusions from, but it is something one
could try for a couple of plants in the future, in one or more of
the spots in one's garden where susceptible plants always get
verticillium.

I came across this research result from China:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16964957

Is their Verticillium the same as anyone else's? I have no way
to know. Will any of the plant extracts that they found work on
other races or subspecies of Verticillium found elsewhere?
Maybe.

Some of those types of plants are hard to find, but Platycodon
grandiflorum (balloon flower) is common enough, and I found
one place that had seeds of Cnidium monnieri. I do not know
what "Allium. cepa." is exactly, but it suggests to me that
interplanting or rotating with alliums might be one way to
combat Verticillium problems (onions, garlic, leeks, etc).

(The farthest gone of Ivan's afflicted leaves do look like
Verticillium to me. There are a few spots of what could be
other things there, but that could be simply because the
plant has been weakened. One garden adviser mentioned
that drought typically raises the susceptibilty of plants to
powdery mildew, simply by weakening the plant, while high
humidity makes a friendly atmospheric environment for it.)

[z_willus_d]

Originally Posted by dice

One garden adviser mentioned
that drought typically raises the susceptibilty of plants to
powdery mildew, simply by weakening the plant, while high
humidity makes a friendly atmospheric environment for it.)

Hi Dice, thanks for contributing. It's interesting how the garden advisers advice about drought flies in the face of the advice Ivan gave. That is that one should reduce watering on a plant with P.M. so as to slow the progression (that the tomato plant can handle the drought better so than the mildew. So much counter information on subjects like this leads me to believe the problems are just far more complex than a simple answer would suffice. The answer of to drought or not to drought probably depends on other factors.
-n

[b54red]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

Hi Dice, thanks for contributing. It's interesting how the garden advisers advice about drought flies in the face of the advice Ivan gave. That is that one should reduce watering on a plant with P.M. so as to slow the progression (that the tomato plant can handle the drought better so than the mildew. So much counter information on subjects like this leads me to believe the problems are just far more complex than a simple answer would suffice. The answer of to drought or not to drought probably depends on other factors.
-n

I have found that very moist soil does encourage the growth of mildews even if the weather is not rainy.

Bill

[Paradajz]

sorry, N.,

regarding the photos i didn't mean the last ones as the damaged ones but the last disease- chronology ones ( with just about all chlorosis in ''V''- shape there ; BTW, chlorosis is an leaf area with the lack of chlorophyll in it, with a visual appearance as a yellow/ish spot ).

as for the drought, i actually recommended it as a part of strategic overall approach to come to as many fruits as possible from a verticillium infected tomato plant, not a P.M. one, although dry conditions don't favor P.M. too.

[Paradajz]

Originally Posted by LDx4

...
Beeman, where in Canada are you located? Do you get regular, below-zero freezes in the winter in your area? I ask because I think that part of the problem with living in some California climates is that we don't get that extreme cold weather in the winter, and I suspect that fungus etc. just overwinters here and then strikes again, full force each summer. I work to supply the "good guys" to my planting each year as you do, but in my garden the good guys are way overpowered by the "bad guys." And now with this especially bad year of disease, I'm just ready to throw in the towel and use some atomic methods.
...

Lyn

hi, Lyn,

an excellent remark there. shorter seasons in cooler areas do have some advantages on the other side...
but than again, our warmer climates allow us to do conduct an ancient and long- forgottent but still very effective technique... more on it in the VERTICILLIUM- not- powdery- mildew cure tip in the next post