Is this little thing really what's destroyed my gardens?

[Paradajz]

hi, Steve,

no trouble there- i'm currently enjoying the first vacation i gave myself in 7 years, and with a visit my ladies are making to distant relatives, i somehow enjoy sleeping to noon almost each day, especially when spending nights on something i love today just as i did on the first day
and this forum is also a very substantial learning experience to me.

i'll be back in no time, by then some additional questions for Naysen:
* potting mix for seedlings, what do you make it from?
* pots for seedling, do you use the same ones each year?
* what do you feed your worms with?
* have any sanitarian precaution actions been taken with the worm- box that you use or you simply ''take it when it's done'' and go directly to the next cycle, also, how did you organize the place and the process of worm- casting?

br

[Paradajz]

ok, N., about your father's garden.

it's as definite proof of soil borne root- pathogen as there gets to be. whether it's a V. or a F. is less important at this moment. my high conviction of a V. comes from experience- hints your plants are giving, but i have also never met an expert good enough who could distinct those two with 100% accuracy beyond any doubt, so you'll have to do a lab- test on those plants either way. and please note, any answer given without a lab proven existence of the pathogen won't do for you, do if in whatever way possible

the important part is what you'll need to do about it. my advice:

* whatever way of treating the problem you chose, it has to be done with both soil in your and your father's garden.
please note, if you chose not to plant any tomatoes ( and other sustainable crops ) at those spots for some time, do not take the stuff written over net as a given law- it's not a certain fact when you could plant in those soils again. my recommendation would be 8 years for a fairly large safety of the disease's come back. theoretically a period of 4 years is often named, but there have also been empiric facts that a V. survived 15 years in the soil with weather conditions convenient to it, and your climate is absolutely convenient for a long time survival of any of those.

* you need to find where it comes from- pots, potting mixes, seeds/seedlings, vermicast ( worms itself could easily be a mean of spreading the pathogen ), surrounding weeds/plants, tools and equipment... this could mean that you'll also need to test a solid amount of vermicast you produce for pathogen's presence.

* if for any reason you can't do all of it, do an experimental test: if you grow from seeds start a couple of new plants from the same seed you used, don't graft- go for sustainable plants, plant seedlings in containers but at safe distance from your existing garden, some with vermicast in soil mix and some without it, also start with some other seeds ( safe ones ) and repeat the same procedure, go 2-3 plants for each variation, don't use any ''health'' stuff as beneficial bacteria etc., and you should have some clarification there.

p.s.
i almost forgot, if you do the experiment, make a small wound with a different tool ( and disinfected hands ) to each seedling when transplanting to the container, an inch under the soil level, a needle would do.

[z_willus_d]

Ok, Ivan I have to say all this is a bit of an overload for me -- I mean all the experiments and potential procedures and such. First let me try and answer your outstanding questions.

* ...and, finally, the BIG question for you: do you grow form seeds, and, if yes, where did you get it from?
- About half of my plants are grown from seeds that I purchased from reputable companies/sites: burpee, Johnnies, Gurneys, etc.; the majority of the rest are either self saved (minor few) or seeds I've received from various generous donor members from this site, either gratis or for trade. So, I've grown all of my plants from seed this year.
* potting mix for seedlings, what do you make it from?
- I used Fox Farm's Ocean Floor potting mix; well known and respected.:
http://foxfarmfertilizer.com/item/oc...ting-soil.html
* pots for seedling, do you use the same ones each year?
- Marla gave me some great small seedlings pots this past Winter, so I purchased a large order of the same for this summer. Not re-used, all new. They're around 5-6" tall and 2-2.5" square
* what do you feed your worms with?
- Scraps from the kitchen; incidentally, today we had a party for my son and I have about 15lb of used watermelon rinds, grapes, apple cores, lettuce and stuff like that. I'll be feeding the worms later when it cools off in the garage.
* have any sanitarian precaution actions been taken with the worm- box that you use or you simply ''take it when it's done'' and go directly to the next cycle, also, how did you organize the place and the process of worm- casting?
- No sanitary actions/precautions taken. I know that one can solarize the castings/dry-out/etc., but then don't you kill off all the baby worms, worm sacs, and any beneficial organisms w/ the bad? As far as organization, I'm just using one of the stack-able worm factory containers (here: http://www.wormfactory.us/) It was a gift some time ago, and I've added on trays to 8 or so high. So worms kind of live in shredded paper at the top (migrate up) and the old stuff is consumed and cycled through in the bottom trays. I just grab all the old stuff when it looks fully processed, dump it in an 18gal tote and use as needed. I'd like to start brewing more teas with the castings.

I don't have enough room in the garden to really support any kind of multi-year rotation scheme. Also, I'd be awful sad to put off gardening tomatoes/peppers/eggplants (my mainstays) for 3+ years only to come back to them and have the same problems. Furthermore, these are fresh new raised beds with new soil, so what's to stop the problems from coming back.

I will certainly try and get a stem sample of a few of my Dad's dead tomato plants. I hope to hear back from the Diagnosis Services at UCD about testing my soil/plants.

I'll try and take several pictures of the plants and their surroundings this evening in answer to your request for more details and updated pics.

Thanks Ivan.
-naysen

[Paradajz]

it will pass. the overload i mean, just as well as the disease thing.
i'd say from this point of view that the most probable cause is vermicast or something related.

take a rest from the darn thing, i'll see to explain the procedure later, there's plenty of time for it.

br


p.s.
can't restrain myself from asking... do by any chance any of your most affected plants show some brown/red irregular lines visible on the stems?

[z_willus_d]

To that last question, nope. I did have two plants go down to Tomato Russet Mites earlier in the season (much smaller seedlings). I sent some samples of the leaves to Steve, and he found the mites in the new growth area (I missed them). Since then, I went on the offensive against the mites, so they're pretty much eradicated. I certainly haven't seen any evidence of them in corpus, alive or in the damage they can do along the stem (or backside of leaves). I'm not sure if mites is what you were getting at or not? Why did you ask?

BTW, I don't need a break, but my mind can't process so many different paths and experiments. I need a prioritized list, which for me starts with seeing if I can get some tests run on the foliage/soil.
Thanks,
Naysen

[aclum]

Hi Naysen,

That's great that you'll be getting in contact with UCDavis (my alma mater, BTW) That A&L labs can test for all the things you mentioned, but they're not cheap! Davis is probably a better bet.

All that Ivan is suggesting does sound a bit overwhelming. After he posted his method of killing the verticillium, I was checking out solarization and verticillicium, and according to several articles I came across, it can be used to kill f, v, nematodes, etc. in 6-10 weeks in the summer (probably not to the degree that Ivan's method does - esp. for some nematodes, but certainly a lot easier and faster!). If you do start losing some plants (which I sincerely hope you don't), now would be the perfect time to solarize your soil.

Maybe, if you have the room, you could set up a temporary situation using grow bags and whatever potting soil Marla is using. Then transplant or take cuttings from whatever is unaffected and put them in the new soil away from the affected area. Raybo did say in another thread that now is the time to get the fall crop started!

Perhaps you could solarize a section of your garden at a time, overlapping as you go, so you don't have to take everything out at once????

Just an idea, not fully researched, but I'm just thinking of what you might do while to get your soil problems worked out so that all is not lost! I'm sure Davis will have plenty of suggestions on what to do once they get a diagnosis.

Glad you had a nice birthday party for your son! Happy Father's Day tomorrow!

Anne

[Paradajz]

ok, the puzzle:

steve, you asked for a photo of both leaf sides:




about the fungicides- it was a regular spray, not connected to the disease, so no clue there. plants were treated according to my regular pattern:

5/9 copper + propineb ( at the first prognosis of rain after planting )
5/23 trifloxystrobin ( + magnesium ''boost'' treatment )
6/7 copper + propineb

nobody asked but i'll say- weather:

planted from 4/23 to 4/29, temp. levels 25-32C daily, 20-24C nights, all the way to 5/11
from 5/11 till this moment 23 days of constant or partial raining ( monthly amount 295mm ), temps highly changing, averagely 18-22C daily, 15-16C nights

update:

day 1 ( first photos )
* first appearance of symptoms, defoliation of my Crnkovic Yugoslavians ( 8 plants ) and BW-s ( 5 plants ) averagely 15%
* lower branches affected but rising quite quickly
* plant- sorts affected in close proximity of each other, just next to strawberry- bed, few yards away from other toms, but nothing else affected ( again, nobody asked )
* here's your clue- i sprayed a systemic, not really that often used outdoors

day 2
* further defoliation, up to 20%

day 3
* defoliation up to 25%, i expect it to close at 30% in a couple of days

common, guys, if you don't solve this fast my plants are dead
that's actually one of the points of the puzzle- how can we spray something when we don't know what it is...
the other point will be how it came to such a serious condition and whether i could have prevented it.
but the main point will be how to overcome it. solving troubles is what gardening stand for

[z_willus_d]

Hi Anne,

Yes, UCD is the top Ag school around these parts. I've taken several microbiology and organic chem type classes there (prep for the viticulture/oenology Master program) a while back, and my wife did her undergrad there as well. It's a bit of a drive from where we live now.

With the solarization prospect, I worry that while I'm killing all the bad stuff I'm also going to kill the worms, good bacteria and all the rest. I wonder if the same might be of concern with the "hot merde" method that Ivan has suggested, or maybe that's more forgiving to the good organisms? I'd think the worms would try and eat the manure.

In terms of setting up an isolated separate grow situation, I feel like I've done that already both this year and last. Here's why. I have half 55-gal barrels that I filled with potting mix last year separate from the mix I used in my main beds. I had all the same issues with the tomato plants I planted in those barrels as I did in the main beds. Also, since I commissioned several new EarthTainers last season, I was filling them up with brand new grow media as well.. the basic stuff Ray suggests, though in a few I also included some of the fox-farm's Ocean Floor. Anyway, those EarthTainer tomatoes did worse than everthing else. They grew fine at first, but once they set a few fruit... they started turning yellow/brown/crispy/dead. I got next to nothing from those plants. So this year, I've planted only peppers in the EarthTainers and Eggplants in the Half-barrels. But again, I'm using new soil (but this time with some rabbit manure added in).

I guess my point is that I've already kind of isolated out with new grow media with the same bad results. That said, I think one thing all my plants and beds and containers have shared is a little bit of my worm castings. So it's possible the castings (vermicast) could be poison some how.

Well, yes it was a nice party. Lots of family here.. good food and cake (though I save the cake for evening-nighttime). My smoked tomatillo salsa was a hit.

Thanks,
Naysen

[Paradajz]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

To that last question, nope. I did have two plants go down to Tomato Russet Mites earlier in the season (much smaller seedlings). I sent some samples of the leaves to Steve, and he found the mites in the new growth area (I missed them). Since then, I went on the offensive against the mites, so they're pretty much eradicated. I certainly haven't seen any evidence of them in corpus, alive or in the damage they can do along the stem (or backside of leaves). I'm not sure if mites is what you were getting at or not? Why did you ask?

BTW, I don't need a break, but my mind can't process so many different paths and experiments. I need a prioritized list, which for me starts with seeing if I can get some tests run on the foliage/soil.
Thanks,
Naysen

asked because F. sometimes signs the stem that way, V. doesn't do it that often.
sorry, it's kind of a regular issue to me and i sometimes forget it might not be to others

p.s.

Anne, solarization is an ok method, but empirically does the job for weeds only ( not all weeds though ) and i don't think it would do much good to him- both pathogen sorts go down up to 50cm deep

also, ''cooking'' as i named it is the most used method of fertilizing in the history of mankind.
in other words, in addition to eradicating some of the bad guys it revives and feeds the soil to a huge extent, sufficient to cover for 3/4 of total fert amount for a plant cycle.
i just gave this as an info, but commercial growers in my neighborhood could give the account how financially more convenient it eventually gets to be

br

[z_willus_d]

Ivan, on your mystery, would you say your leaves look significantly different from this?


Having only used one semi-systemic now, I wouldn't hazard any guesses based on a clue that involves a systemic seldom used outdoors. How would I know? Maybe 10 years down the road, I'll be better equipped to play the sleuth.
-naysen

[Paradajz]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

Hi Anne,
...

With the solarization prospect, I worry that while I'm killing all the bad stuff I'm also going to kill the worms, good bacteria and all the rest. I wonder if the same might be of concern with the "hot merde" method that Ivan has suggested, or maybe that's more forgiving to the good organisms? I'd think the worms would try and eat the manure.

...
Well, yes it was a nice party. Lots of family here.. good food and cake (though I save the cake for evening-nighttime). My smoked tomatillo salsa was a hit.

Thanks,
Naysen

it's actually the beneficial bacteria that produce such high temps when degrading the manure. there is no similar ''God's given place'' for good guys when that stuff starts cooling, especially earth worms which typically make a feast of it ( BTW, in our rural Balkan's the usual food for worms when making castings is manure, agged of course ).
and eventually plants get to be the ones to eat it

With a small delay, a very happy birthday to a future master gardener

[Paradajz]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

Ivan, on your mystery, would you say your leaves look significantly different from this?


Having only used one semi-systemic now, I wouldn't hazard any guesses based on a clue that involves a systemic seldom used outdoors. How would I know? Maybe 10 years down the road, I'll be better equipped to play the sleuth.
-naysen

very different, these are ''dry'' necrosis with clear chlorosis area surrounding it, dry necrotic leaf tips also ( oh wait, i know this disease ), while my misery is ''wet'' ( soft ) and not clearly margined chlorosis and distinctive fungal spots ( feels like those leafs are melting somehow ).

but don't worry, i'll state the diagnosis tomorrow.
the point of the puzzle actually was to see why you all sprayed myclobutanil ( not that anything bad will come out of it, on the contrary ) when you were not certain it was a P.M., and on a ''higher level'' to connect your ( and Steve's and plenty of other's ) wish for a healthy plant and organic gardening as a gardeners philosophy to reality- it's hard but manageable and it takes a lot of time and above all knowledge and understanding.
in my country we actually have a field of education on it- how to manage the process of skipping from conventional ( chemo- spraying ) gardening to an organic one. in the part of pests and diseases we call it ''integral disease management''

good night all.

[z_willus_d]

Ivan, I had to try. I guess where I see yellow, brown, green and gray, you see patterns and order.

Ok, here's a post with some updated pics of the plants under fire. These were sprayed with Green cure (Potassium Bicarbonate) over the evenings of 6/2-6/3. And I sprayed everything with Myclobutinil on 6/11.

The 1st three pics show the graft union (what's left of it) of my oldest three grafted plants (Wes, Goose Creek, and Green Zebra respectively); all on Maxifort. I thought it would just be nice to show that.

The next nine pics show a series of some of my less mature grafted plants (previously not shown here), and they have more recently started to exhibit the same symptoms as their older peers (the ones I showed pics of in earlier posts). I'd say they started to exhibit symptoms about 2-3 weeks back, and at the same maturity level as the ones that came before. What scions am I showing here? Well I think the 1st two pics are Pink Berkeley tie-dye. Then next two pics might be KBX. And I have one or two of my Stump of the World on Beaufort rootstock. There's also a Wes (different from the very 1st pic), and a Cherokee Purple to make nine.

The next four pics (IMAG0588-IMAG0591) show the older plants that I posted on originally. In series, they are Pruden's Purple, BW Sudduth's, Vintage Wine, and BW Sudduth's again.

The last four pics show some of the yellowing leaves I've been getting on my peppers (sometimes the leaves don't turn yellow, but just droop and fall-off). The last pic shows one of the similar leaves from my Egg-plant. I'd say the Peppers and eggplant seem to be showing benefit to the P.M. spraying I've done more obviously than so the tomatoes, which seem to continually loose branches and leaves (up-up-and away).

That's it. I'll have one more post after this one with pics and general comments about the garden (per Ivan's request).
-naysen

p.s. Any white powder you see in the pics is from a dusting with Diatomaceous Earth a couple weeks back. I haven't seen any evidence of drooping, wilting leaves/branches lately. The leaves all seem either tough green and fine or yellow tough, but not rubbery or wilty; more dry. I also added IMAG0579 which is of the same class as the nine I mentioned above (it's PBTD).

[z_willus_d]

Hello Ivan,

My garden consists of two retaining-wall type raised beds, one wooden (~3'x7' raised bed), several SWC Earth/InnTainers (Raybo's design), some nursery pots, and eight half 55-gallon barrels on the hillside.

Pics 1-3 show the Earth/InnTainers and assorted nursery pots. These all set on the patio ahead of the 2nd retaining-wall type raised bed. I have a very lousy shade-cloth setup right now, due to a major failure to launch earlier in the season. The SWCs all get various peppers. There are a couple eggplant and other peppers in the nursery pots.

Pics 4 and 5 poorly show my eight half-barrels, which set on the precipice of my hillside (right side of the yard). The hill goes down about 50' I guess to a green belt. The hill is full of weeds, which I weed-whacked down a couple weeks back. BTW, that shadow there doesn't do me justice.

Pics 6-10 show the 2nd raised-bed, that's really just a retraining wall built into the side of my hill (left-hand side of yard). I built this bed by excavating into my hillside this past Winter. It's about 2'-3' deep and 5'-6' wide, so I have two rows of plants crammed in there. Ahead of the bed is my poorly cared for back lawn on the left (only so much time) and the patio with the Tainers on the right.

Pics 11-16 show the 1st raised bed, that's really just another retaining wall + raised bed of cinder blocks. I built this two winters back when we moved into the new home. It used to just be a drainage ditch. There's also that wooden raised bed thrown up there in place of a nice tree I had to rip out to make room for these ungrateful tomato plants. This structure is to the right-most (East-ish) side of my yard. Note this bed runs orthogonal to the 2nd, newer one I Mentioned above. There is intervening grass lawn between the patio and this 1st raised bed series. I have a whole thread dedicated to my work building the beds and filling them here:
http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=20912

That pretty much sums up the situation.

Thanks for looking/commenting, and thanks for the best Father's day wishes (my 2nd only).
-naysen

[GreenSand117]

Naysen,

Man I feel bad for you. I have been reading this thread and it seems like a "tomato curse" has been cast upon you. Hang in there and I hope you are successful in getting your problem properly diagnosed...that will be the first step in treating the problem.

Take Care, David.