Is this little thing really what's destroyed my gardens?

[Heritage]

Naysen,

The crown is the area of stem just above soil line. Unless she specifies otherwise, I would send a complete root with a short (6" or so) main stem attached. Probably shake the dirt off the roots but don't wash them (again, you might ask the specifics).

Steve

Edit to Add: my sister is a faster typer...

[Paradajz]

Originally Posted by Heritage

Ivan,

I appreciate the details on your heat treatment of V infected soil. I will archive your recommendations (if I don't have V. now, I probably will, someday) and refer to it as needed. For anyone in the US (maybe other countries also) I will add the step of: 1. first test the manure for herbicide residues before adding to your soil. Unfortunately, this is now necessary regardless of the source of your manure. Ironically, my first step at switching to organic farming was to add 60 yards of composted manure to my soil two years ago. The manure came from a stable of expensive horses, fed the best hay money can buy. I knew better, but didn't test the manure, and as it turned out, everywhere I spread the manure the tomato plants are showing the tell-tale signs of herbicide damage. Fortunately, I only spread manure over a small portion of my field so I will only loose a small portion (about 100)of my plants to the herbicide. If I were to use your heat treatment method I would probably substitute alfalfa for the manure or use a variation of Anne's solar method. (add layers) Although, in reality, if I tested positive for V. I would probably switch all of my tomato growing to containers and use a soiless mix. Kind of a faux-hydro system.

As for your puzzle, I really don't have a solid guess. Your first photos of Crnkovic Y. had me convinced it was probably P.M. but now I'm not sure. I'm going to say it is not V or F, and is probably a mold/fungus I'm not familiar with. (I'm not familiar with many). I'm curious to hear the solution!

Naysen, sorry to hear of the decline of your father's tomatoes. Hopefully, you will soon get a clinical answer to the soil/plants in both of your plots.

Steve

hi, Steve,

yes, i'm starting to be aware of the differences between our systems, learning about those was originally one of the basic reasons i came here for.
as for manure- you should visit us and check these hills and mountains and similar God forbidden places crowded with animals freely feeding. if you told a Montenegrin that somebody somewhere actually had headaches to find a solid manure he most probably would take it that you had ''one to many''

so, i know what you mean, i even still think that one of such cases is a probability here
http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=28577 .
Gosh, i must apologize to Tammy, i saw her questions only now... well, most probably i'll tell her that Naysen and you are to blame

as for the PUZZLE thing, it has been solved in a very interesting way here
http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=28651
i must say both you and Naysen were definitely on the road to it, definitely wouldn't escape you
the basic reason i usurped Naysen's thread with it was to try to explain where would be the border line between chemical disease management and chemistry abuse. specifically, such very rare appearance of it outdoors ( in my climate ), along with such a long incubation period which could make symptoms appear on new leafs even up to 10-12 days after one made the most adequate treatment, makes this disease very convenient as a source for chemistry abuse- plenty of people would spray again in those 10-12 days thinking they missed with the first one. just as myclobutanil here was a ''micro'' chemistry abuse, which actually did well for your gardens but still was a bit premature
more details on Mike's thread, but i would still like to see some new photos of your plants.
about the procedure- there will be lot of chances to explain it more precisely when i start answering the mountain of questions N. had there...

[Paradajz]

Originally Posted by dice

There may be more happening with the manure treatment
than simply heat of decomposition killing the verticillium.
I had one row where verticillium took down 4 Moskvich plants
pretty fast one year. (A few Pruden's Purple plants were afflicted,
too, but not as quickly.)

In mid-winter I piled up a foot of aged horse manure on that
row, and I left it open, letting the rain run through it for a few
months, washing nutrients down into the soil underneath the
manure. In spring I turned it under before planting. I had no
verticillium in that row the next year.

edit: This was before aminopyralid was approved for sale in
the US, or about the same time, and it had not spread out
into the hay/manure supply chain yet, as not many hay
farmers were using it.

actually, there are 2 basic problems for a V. in it's natural environment- Heat and Crowds.
manure decomposition produces both.

br,
ivan

[z_willus_d]

Steve/Marla- got it. I'm going to drive over to the university to discuss the issues and hand deliver the samples in person later this week. The individual thinks "that this might be Phythopthora problem."
-naysen

[Paradajz]

Naysen,

great news there
you might also want to get some more info about the samples- in what time after collecting you should get it to them, in what kind of ''package'', should it be preserved from heat, etc.

to be continued with procedure comments after i pay off some debts on other threads

[Paradajz]

hmmm, it will be interesting to see about that.

if you see roots decaying on those peppers than it might be Phythpthora problem.
i'm still on the other side, but keeping my fingers crossed for you any way.

[z_willus_d]

Hi Ivan, I'm more suspicious of the Phythpthora prognosis than your V. I'm not sure why the individual went there, but I guess it would have to be based on my descriptions. I provided a link to this thread, but I'm not sure if it's been used. In any case, that's why I want to meet the person who will be performing the tests and talk through my problems and the garden conditions.

My assumption is they'll want the samples as soon as possible from when they were "harvested." I wouldn't expose them to extreme temperatures. I was planning on spraying sulfur this evening (first time), but now I think it might be wise to delay that -- not so much for fear of micro/macro chemistry abuse, but rather because I want the tests to be on material that hasn't been recently altered by a spray fungicide.

So it was mold then. I suppose that makes sense, given your constant rain leading up to it's incidence. I didn't know that it would come back in 14-days, regardless of contact spray. That's good information. Learn something new every day here.
Thanks,
-naysen

[Paradajz]

Phytophthora is a very visible disease.

why sulfur?

it actually can't be back in up to 14 days- it's already ''in'', waiting to appear for a very unusually long period of time. the only way to stop it when it's in is some systemics in max. 48h after infection range, any later use of fungicides will not prevent the ones which are in from developing into a disease, but if done correctly it will prevent the ''first ones'' from contaminating more leafs of a plant.

[z_willus_d]

Why Sulfur?

While I've been proceeding under the assumption (perhaps completely poor) that my garden issues are in some measure due to the P.M L.T strain that we've discussed here earlier. That was the reason for my spraying Potassium Bicarbonate a couple weeks back, and my then spraying of the myclobutanil a week back. And I can't perform serial, back-to-back administration of the myclobutanil (tolerance build-up), so I thought I would try the sulfur I purchased, and then pop back to it (the myclo) a week or two later. Of course, by then I might know more based on the tests.

I guess I can't say any of my P.M. treatments to date have definitively stopped my malady in its tracks. I still see new yellow branches/leaves showing up (maybe 2-3 a day) on all the older plants. I characterize these branches as those I can just pull off at the crease with very little effort because the plant is rejecting the branch. Also worth noting is that the temps, which were in the 100+F range for several days straight when my issue hit a crescendo, have now been cooler for around a week hovering around 90F. I have a feeling were we to go back to that 115F, I'd see plenty more death and decay in the vines. I still feel like there's some big clue to the fact that the outer branches/leaves of the vines don't fall prey to the yellow/brown-or-grey/dry death nearly much as those within the canopy, deeper toward the center of the tomato cages. That has to mean something.
-naysen

[Heritage]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

The individual thinks "that this might be Phythopthora problem."

Phythopthora? Tell them that isn't one of the choices

Seriously, good luck with the prognosis, I'm anxious to hear the results!

Steve

[Paradajz]

BTW,

being a bit ''professionally deformed'' and extremely careful when growing seeds from plants unknown to me, i put those American Beauties ones i got this year ( from California actually ) on a special kind of procedure... some 25% of Winnsall's and Aunt Ginny's Purple were contaminated with Phythophthora parasitica. and, beyond all my protective walls for those, there are still 2 seed- born TSWVs in my garden

but i am more than very very satisfied with those sorts at this stage.

oh, P.M.... there is a chance sulfur might seriously damage your plants at this point.
it's a bit cooler within the canopy, also the humidity is slightly higher, ideal for just about any fungal disease to make it's feast.

BTW, my vacation will be over next week, might be not that often but it will still be a great pleasure to continue the road of ''agreeably disagreeing'' we all started here.

[rwsacto]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

"that this might be Phythopthora problem."
-naysen

Tell him the "experts" here believe it is P.M, V., or F.

Make sure you get the tech to back his prognosis with a bet before testing!

Also ask him if he has personally confirmed any P.I. this season in CA.

Rick

[z_willus_d]

Originally Posted by Paradajz

oh, P.M.... there is a chance sulfur might seriously damage your plants at this point.
it's a bit cooler within the canopy, also the humidity is slightly higher, ideal for just about any fungal disease to make it's feast.

Right, cooler, less air-flow, certainly more humid, which is why I figured on the P.M. or a fungus type foliar issue. The reason I've held off on spraying sulfur for so long now is because I wanted to give the plants over 3 weeks without having sprayed any oils on them, as I understand sulfur and oils is a big no-no. I also think that temps above 90F (or maybe it was 95F) are supposed to be bad w/ sulfur, but our forecast this next week is for more of the same 90F-ish temps, and I spray in the evening. Are there other reasons to expect the sulfur might damage the leaves?

BTW, I apologize for the constant deluge of questions. I find a source of information and then proceed to turn the faucet full to the right. I for one will be sad to see your vacation come to an end Ivan.

Best.
-naysen

[Heritage]

Ivan, I've learned a lot during your short vacation, and I appreciate the time and information you shared. Please don't wait another 7 years before your next vacation

Maybe one last question

The propolis tincture seed treatment won't stop TSWV?

Thanks again.
Steve

[Paradajz]

Originally Posted by Heritage

Ivan, I've learned a lot during your short vacation, and I appreciate the time and information you shared. Please don't wait another 7 years before your next vacation

Maybe one last question

The propolis tincture seed treatment won't stop TSWV?

Thanks again.
Steve

thanks, Steve.
i actually promised my wife i'd make us an early pension in the following couple of years, losing a lot of family time working this way
but i'll absolutely be here on the regular basis, i see plenty to talk about in the future for all of us. BTW, sounds interesting when one states that he's enjoying plant's diseases conversation with some unknown people a few thousands miles away, doesn't it?

TSWV? nothing will stop it if seeds come from an infected fruit ( not necessarilly all the fruits from an infected plants are contaminated, or let's say empirically that in some 5% of cases you might find a ''normally'' looking fruit on such a plant, and it'll still be contaminated )- it's already inside, nothing you can do will help. it's the case not only with TSWV.
not only that i did a propolis tincture treatment on those, but all the seeds were grown safely apart and seedling carefully monitored, plus 2 early drench treatments with fosetylat/propamocarb were done there, plus 1 drench and foliar fosetyl aluminium/copper-at10%regular dose, plus an early drench and foliar seedling copper/mancozeb treatment. in simple words, all ''ultra'' effective combinations covering practically everything manageable, ranging from fungal rots to viral risks.
results were a regular percentage of Septoria and high with Phytophthora rots. TSWV you can not visually detect in such early stages anyway.
PLEASE, don't take this ''nuclear bombardment'' approach as recommended, it's just a system to reduce the risk to minimal.
anyway, it absolutely can't poison the fruits being done so early, but it is a hard sellection process and it will kill a lot of plants.
easier to have the seeds from a reliable address

talk soon, br