Is this little thing really what's destroyed my gardens?

[z_willus_d]

Here's an example of what most of the stems look like. To my eyes, there's no evidence of darkening characteristic to F. or V.

Still waiting on more results from UCD, eagerly.
-naysen

[Paradajz]

offshoots won't show it, mostly it will just show a small hole or holes at center cross section, and that's with let's say 75% probability, also doesn't prove neither V. nor F., it can be caused by various things.
climbing up the offshoots up to such a grade to cause a clear visual discoloration of the offshoots was actually considered impossible for a V. for a very long time. actually, it is possible and it happens, but the number of such cases isn't that large to make you optimistic about finding it that way.
lower parts of main stems ( crown ) will show F. discoloration at a very high probability, V. with quite lower probability and quite less clear visual appearance. both of those you will NOT be able to see by using ''outside'' eye- test method, only cross and longitude sections can do that.

i'll see to find some photo from my collection to present.

br

p.s.
BTW, did those people asked you for a pepper sample at all?

[z_willus_d]

Hi Ivan, thanks for the background and info on the discoloration. I think many of the lower offshoot stems I've pulled actually have shown a hollow in the center in various degrees of intensity.

Question- Even if I pull a lower offshoot stem that doesn't express discoloration, would a lab tester be able to use the stem from an infected plant to determine the presence of F. or V.?

2nd Question (actually it's an old one I've already posted). A while back you gave direction not to feed plants with Seaweed drench and to only foliar if they are fruiting (I think that's how you put it). Can you elaborate on that some, as I (and I know many others) use seaweed extract as a prime source for in-season fertilizer as well as in AACT teas and direct foliar treatments. I'm trying to understand your cautions against its use.

Thanks,
Naysen

p.s. To your question, they weren't so interested in the peppers, but I did bring samples of the pepper leaves. I believe they through one in a temp chamber to look for P.M.. I don't think any V. or F. plates were made from them.
-n

[Paradajz]

hi, N.

unfortunatelly it would be a very very very random chance to find and prove V. or F. by testing those offshoots. you need the stems.

sorry, i took the photos attached from a colegue, but i must have done something very wrong with it since i see now those are very small. never mind, i still believe it will do the job, check it:

t_dsc05040.jpg

t_dsc05042.jpg

t_dsc05045.jpg

t_dsc05043.jpg

[Paradajz]

...
and now, check the plant it came from:

fotografija0380_179.jpg


so, what you've seen in the prior post were photos taken from an extremely damaged- almost dead plant, infected by V.albo-atrum ( lab proven ).
maybe it can help understand how discrete those discolorations could be

also, when you search for it and make stem sections, dont start from the soil- crown level but a couple of inches deeper- start searching deeper from the soil- a place which was once pot- soil level of a seedling at transplant. that's if you plant seedlings deeper with removing cotyledons and lower leafs off course.
not sure that my English was sufficient to explain what i actually wanted, but still- you want to search for discolorations from the place where it usually is the strongest: the place of common entry of those pathogens, a couple of inches deep in the ground, so you should start making sections from there up to some 6-8 inches above the ground.

br

[z_willus_d]

Ivan- thanks for posting the reference pictures for V. albo-atrum, miniscule as they are. It sounds like I'm going to need to uproot a few plants here pretty soon. If I wait for them to die, they're no good due to saprophytes. Since I don't see any visual external signs of darkening around my lower stem-trunks-crowns, I can't determine a good plant to pull. That leaves me to randomly up chucking the buggers, which is what I did last season without ever finding any obvious signs of the "darkening" tissue. I can't dig under the soil for most of my plants, since they are grafted (thus I did not bury their stems). I do have 4 non-grafted plants left with somewhat buried main stems.

Well, since I am getting some fruit now despite the continued decline of the plants, I'm included to wait until later in the season to pull out and hack more of the vines. I think the added vigor of the Maxifort root stock is helping the plants stay alive even as they loose, constantly, foliage. This next week (or longer) will be a real test, since we're set to have 105-110F+ highs every day.

It's going to be a slaughter out there.
Thanks,
Naysen

[dice]

What I would do to choose a sacrificial plant for the lab if you
cannot see any stem discoloration is to look further up the plant,
where the leaf symptoms are. Pick the one still alive but with
the worst looking foliage (most necrotic leaves). Even if you
cannot see the stem discoloration on the outside, that is still
the plant most likely to show it in a cut section from the bottom
of the main stem.

[z_willus_d]

Dice, good point. And so very much to choose from.

[z_willus_d]

Well, I just got this in from the UCD contact. Suffice to say, I'm not too happy. The suggestion seem to be that I must have poor soil or bad nutrients or lack of nitrogen or this or that. None of which is the case. And so the mystery continues. I'm growing weary.

"So we do not have a Vert or a Fusarium problem. The Fusarium was not pathogenic (saprophyte). If it was Vert, then most of your egg plants would have die. The problem might be a combination of nutritional and varietal. Manure are a good source of fertilizer only if you let them decompose for a whole before using them.(Even with rabbit) If you use them straight, active microbes will use most likely use all the Nitrogen thus starving the plants. You see this more during the fruiting stage as the plants require more nutrient. In addition, since you are planting Heirloom that grow very big, this might be a characteristic with such. I would suggest that you do a small side experiment.
1) Plant another commercially grown variety in one plot.
2) In a different plots with your Heirloom, try to fertilize (miracilgrow grow etc).
"

I'll try and contact UCD to discuss this tomorrow I suppose.

What's interesting is my eggplants have been in a constant state of death. I loose a new leaf or two a day. It goes from healthy green to yellow to brown (falls off) in 24 hours.

-naysen

[efisakov]

Wow, Naysen, sorry to see you having this problem. I already lost Amazon Chocolate, pulled it. It looked like your plant too. Last year it happened to few of my tomatoes. Some tomato beds were all right, in others half tomatoes were gone too soon. I was using different garden soil in them, what ever was available at a time I was working on each tomato bed. I remember you were discussing some soil issues. Look into it as well. My oldest bed is by some miracle is the healthiest, I used top soil then and not a better garden soil. Go figure. Good luck.

[z_willus_d]

Hi Ella, I hate to commiserate with fellow gardeners on this issue. I hope your other plants don't show similar symptoms.

A fellow TV member mentioned "Anerobic Soil Disinfestation" as a potential treatment for F./V. I've been researching it on the web. It seems like an interesting variant to what Ivan had suggested, which was more of an aerobic soil purge, using the heat of fermenting raw manure and some other steps to address F./V.

I wonder if one could use a sequence of Ivan's process and this to really hit the F./V. with a combo attack.

Here are some links to studies on the former (looks promising):
http://cesantacruz.ucanr.edu/files/136234.pdf
http://apsjournals.apsnet.org/doi/pd....2004.88.7.688
http://mbao.org/2012/13Butler.pdf

[z_willus_d]

Here are some pictures of my eggplants. I remove the yellow leaves in the evening when watering every day. There are more waiting for me the next always without fail. So far, I haven't harvested an eggplant of normal size (all mini's).

My pepper plants just drop leaves (turn-yellow) and drop. Very similar situation.
-naysen

[Heritage]

Naysen, that's a disappointing initial effort on the part of UCDavis - I expected at least modicum of expertise. They weren't even in the same ballpark. I had a similar experience with the extension agency here (in San Diego) about 15 years ago. I thought, with UCDavis' reputation as an ag school, there would be better results.

So much for the experts - it looks like you get to figure it out yourself (with Ivan's help). You wouldn't want it any other way

Hang in!
Steve

[z_willus_d]

Hi Steve, yeah. I don't know that it's a matter of expertise so much as interest and time to devote into researching the problem. Grad students do already have a lot to keep them busy. I think they're used to dealing with Ag folks, farmers, or at least folks who sell at farmer's markets, and when I was asked about these things I could only say that I was an avid home gardener.

I think I made a mistake first in providing the crown from an already dead plant, and 2nd providing so many samples from my other plants that were not actually the crown and trunk that interfaces with the soil.

I did provide soil samples, but I don't think they were tested. I'm not going to give up yet. I'll try and have a talk with my contact at UCD to see if we can convey better clarity on my environment (there's no way I've under "fed" these plants) and also work on some follow-up experiments, ideally with the crown of a fresh specimen. I'm less adverse to ripping out living vines now that the season is further along.

I'll figure this out some way or another.
Thanks,
Naysen

[LDx4]

Naysen,

Have you tried contacting your county dept of agriculture? I had to go into the main office of the San Diego County Dept of Agriculture, Weights and Measures to turn in some paperwork for my farmers market seller permit, and while there, I noticed on the counter they had forms to fill out to describe the problem(s) and envelopes for leaf samples. Apparently in this county at least, anyone can request them to take a look at plant samples and a county ag agent will help you determine the problem. You just take your evidence in, drop it off with the forms and envelopes provided, and they get back to you. Might be worth a try for you?

Lyn