Going out on a limb here!

[carolyn137]

I was feeling a bit feisty last night and thought it might be interesting to have a good talk about what grafting can and cannot accomplish.

Some of you may recall that Territorial Seeds started selling grafted tomato plants last year, and there's a thread at Tville about that.

But what I want to do is to give some links about tomato grafting and note that it's loghouse that's supplying the plants to Territorial and yes, some with more than one scion a single rootstock.

http://www.territorialseed.com/product/12284/498

Territorial is sold out for 2012 for all but the Brandywine grafted one, but you can read what they say are the plusses of grafted plants, which mostly comes from the place that provides them with the plants:

http://loghouseplants.com/gardennews...N-grafting.pdf

THe above link provides more details on what grafting can, and by exclusion, cannot accomplish.

And now to go watch tennis from the Olympics, which has been outstanding, but quite a few of you already know my passion for tennis.

[Mudman]

Here is an article which talks about the movement of chloroplasts between grafted plants.

http://www.sciencenews.org/view/gene...sts_via_grafts

and another which claims that genetics are exchanged in the process-

http://scienceblogs.com/notrocketsci...nts-trade-gen/

It all seems to be a very new discovery.

[JamesL]

Wow. Fascinating stuff y'all. I learned a lot following this thread the last few days.
I have read through all the links that were posted and was quickly overwhelmed with information overload. Saving this to some some research this winter. Based on the wealth of relatively new information available with some simple web searches, it does appear that the method is gaining some traction.
What really grabbed my attention (after Camo had already grabbed it with his self described bold statement of the best tasting tomato) was this article comment on Cherokee's -
For the project, researchers genetically bred 46 rootstocks and grafted them to the tops of two popular tomato cultivars: ‘Cherokee Purple’ and ‘Celebrity’. They then compared field and high tunnel grafted tomatoes to non-grafted tomatoes and found that in both production systems, grafted tomatoes out-yielded non-grafted tomatoes anywhere from 5 percent to 30 percent. The yield increases were greatest in the presence of soil-borne diseases and in drought conditions.
http://extension.osu.edu/news-releas...-with-grafting

This article expands on that somewhat.
“Of the 36 rootstocks that advanced to the field, we came up with a list of nine that we thought were acceptable in terms of those characteristics, especially yield and quality, but ended up eliminating six of them because they didn’t graft as well as we would have liked,” said Francis. “Certain combinations just don’t graft well.”
After two years of promising results from the three chosen rootstocks, researchers hope to get at least one more year of data from various field locations across the nation before recommending the rootstocks for commercial production.

the three rootstocks that performed the best were all crosses between a wild South American species and a domesticated tomato.
http://extension.osu.edu/news-releas...to-new-markets

Camo - Did you do your own graft and if so what rootstock did you use from Johnny's? It appears they sell 2 - Maxifort (F1) and Colosus (F1)

I was going to ask the question as to the best rootstock but the same article seems to answer it somewhat. - There are several commercial rootstocks available, but only two that have grown in popularity: Maxifort and Beaufort.

The grafting process seems relatively simple on the whole and Jack Manix made the comment in his article that an experienced worker can graft 60 to 100 plants per hour.

These links were also worth reading as well with respect to different root stocks.
http://cals.arizona.edu/grafting/how...ato_rootstocks

http://www.oardc.ohio-state.edu/graf...0low%20res.pdf

[NGGrant]

So if the DNA travels, can it alter the seeds DNA?

[kurt]

After all the reading this is what I(unless I am not comprehending it completely)I understand.1.Grafting is used for getting the most out of plants in infected soils.2.Trials are done with infected soils on side by side comparisons(grafted/nongrafted).3.Disease is not stopped just delayed from rootstock to graft to ensure good fruit production.4..Is a lot less expensive than soil/steam sterilization for large commercial operations.5.Have not seen or mention of(maybe one for .50cents/seed)for seeds from grafted plants.6.Good soil and infected soil side by side comparisons.7.Increased yields on certain varietys only(hybrids/heirlooms).Im sure some more questions will come up but this is some good info so far.

[barryla61]

As a longtime apple grower I do know that rootstock makes all the difference in the world when it comes to growing fruit. It only makes sense that a bigger healthier rootstock on tomatoes would thus allow more uptake in nutrients and thus change the flavor.

[camochef]

Thanks for all the information, it's gonna take some time for me to absorb all those links.

I did pick some more late this evening and the DDR-grafted ranged from 15 3/8 oz. to 15 1/8 oz. to 13 1/8 on.
The original DDR from seed was 7 7/8 oz. and 8 3/8 oz. which is what the largest DDR's have been running the past few years.
Many more on both plants but the grafted is really the heavier producer in numbers of fruit and in size.
Thanks again!
Camo

[Fusion_power]

Johnnyseeds sells a couple of rootstocks for tomatoes along with clips for grafting. See pages 107 and 108 of the 2012 catalog if you are interested.

http://www.johnnyseeds.com/

I noted one item in the territorial document that is incorrect. They state that grafted plants are more resistant to late blight. Grafting does not increase tolerance to late blight. It does significantly impact tolerance to early blight and septoria.

DarJones

[camochef]

Originally Posted by JamesL

Camo - Did you do your own graft and if so what rootstock did you use from Johnny's? It appears they sell 2 - Maxifort (F1) and Colosus (F1)

I was going to ask the question as to the best rootstock but the same article seems to answer it somewhat. - There are several commercial rootstocks available, but only two that have grown in popularity: Maxifort and Beaufort.

The grafting process seems relatively simple on the whole and Jack Manix made the comment in his article that an experienced worker can graft 60 to 100 plants per hour.

JamesL,

The grafted Dana's Dusky Rose was a gift from Dana. I have no idea which rootstock she used but I will try to find out, next time I see her.
I want to stop over there, (Dana's Flower and Garden Place, which is just over in Littlestown), to see what results she's having with hers. Curious if they have a color difference or the larger size difference and obviously I'm curious how hers taste!
I was hoping that my Dana's Dusky Rose X Brandywine-Cowlick cross would be the next taste favorite, it's that good...but I don't think it stands a chance against this grafted tomato. ( it's the third year for the DDRXBW-C).
Enjoy!
Camo

[JamesL]

Originally Posted by camochef

JamesL,

The grafted Dana's Dusky Rose was a gift from Dana. I have no idea which rootstock she used but I will try to find out, next time I see her.
I want to stop over there, (Dana's Flower and Garden Place, which is just over in Littlestown), to see what results she's having with hers. Curious if they have a color difference or the larger size difference and obviously I'm curious how hers taste!
I was hoping that my Dana's Dusky Rose X Brandywine-Cowlick cross would be the next taste favorite, it's that good...but I don't think it stands a chance against this grafted tomato. ( it's the third year for the DDRXBW-C).
Enjoy!
Camo

Thanks. Going to take a had look at this over the winter and maybe try to graft a couple of Cherokee P's just for giggles and see what happens. Not really concerned about disease resistance, but greater production and size would really be a home run. Improved "taste" would just be a side bonus......

[camochef]

JamesT,

Just returned from Dana's. The rootstock she used was MAXIFORT, purchased from Johnny's select seeds. They are:
50 seeds=$23.05
250 seeds= $74.05
500 seeds= $137.75
1000 seeds=$262.45
5000seeds= $1,140.30

The Clear clips to clamp them together 1.5mm(1/16 inch) to 4 mm (5/32inch) cost $42.50 for a box of 200.

The Orange clips to clamp them together are also $42.50 for a box of 200 and cover sizes from 1/8 inch to 1/4 inch.

Colosus root stock seed is currently -Out of Stock

Good Luck if your determined to try your hand at this. Dana said its rather difficult and she only had about 8 that were truely successful. She gave them to different customers and didn't keep any for herself.
She also did some with Dana's German Johnson and one with a pink heart shaped tomato.
Enjoy!
Camo

[fortyonenorth]

Add to these costs the labor of performing the graft, and it's not an inexpensive proposition. However, speaking from personal experience, it's preferable to losing 50% of a tomato crop to various wilts. I got nailed this year and plan to try grafting next year.

Originally Posted by camochef

JamesT,

Just returned from Dana's. The rootstock she used was MAXIFORT, purchased from Johnny's select seeds. They are:
50 seeds=$23.05
250 seeds= $74.05
500 seeds= $137.75
1000 seeds=$262.45
5000seeds= $1,140.30

The Clear clips to clamp them together 1.5mm(1/16 inch) to 4 mm (5/32inch) cost $42.50 for a box of 200.

The Orange clips to clamp them together are also $42.50 for a box of 200 and cover sizes from 1/8 inch to 1/4 inch.

Colosus root stock seed is currently -Out of Stock

Good Luck if your determined to try your hand at this. Dana said its rather difficult and she only had about 8 that were truely successful. She gave them to different customers and didn't keep any for herself.
She also did some with Dana's German Johnson and one with a pink heart shaped tomato.
Enjoy!
Camo

[kurt]

After all the reading on the pros and some cons it would make sense to graft but in the meantime cure the original problem(disease in the soil)would make sense to me.Lets say you get all theses grafts going nice and some crud in the soil gets picked up(insect/air/water) and transfers to the crop you are back to the original scenario.What I see is the TSeed company mentioned above making a killing.The mater grafting has been around for a while,why all of a sudden the selling of grafted plants is all the rage now?Why are the rootstock seeds so expensive?Have we been buying fruit and seeds from grafted disease carried fruit all this time?More questions than answers for me.I guess what works for commercial growers is good for them,but as a home gardner I am on the "fence"about this grafting craze.

[Fusion_power]

I am on the "fence"about this

Sounds Painful.


Grafting is most beneficial when soil borne diseases are a problem. This includes nematodes which Florida has in abundance.

It can be highly successful if properly done. The biggest failure point is in not giving the correct temperature and humidity for the graft to heal.

DarJones

[kurt]

I am following thread just for the info gathered.I grew my first garden in ground here about 15 years ago and one time was enough.Ever since it has been containers,promix and in the enclosed screened pool area.Too many bugs here,and molds fungas were my nemesis first time.When I win the lotto will buy a nice farm and go to ground with a steam soil sterilization system in place.Until then will keep on reading and learning.