Carolyn's Fall 2012 Feedback Reports

[tam91]

Carolyn, I wonder if any issues are being caused by the post office. I seem to remember hearing that they had a new (crushing) method of processing envelopes. When shipping some months ago, the post office mentioned this, had me choose some other option on one envelope to avoid this problem. Many of the seed vendors send theirs out in padded envelopes. The only vendor that I ordered from that didn't use a padded envelope, I had many germination problems. I wonder if people sent you padded envelopes, if that might help?

Just a theory.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by tam91

Carolyn, I wonder if any issues are being caused by the post office. I seem to remember hearing that they had a new (crushing) method of processing envelopes. When shipping some months ago, the post office mentioned this, had me choose some other option on one envelope to avoid this problem. Many of the seed vendors send theirs out in padded envelopes. The only vendor that I ordered from that didn't use a padded envelope, I had many germination problems. I wonder if people sent you padded envelopes, if that might help?

Just a theory.

Tam. I just saw the copy of your post as received at home and will say that no, the problem is not with the PO.

When the USPS first started using those new rollers there were several here at Tville who showed pictures of crushed seeds, not from my seed offer, though.

So I set up an experiement with Orange Minsk, so this must have been in about 2008 and sent seeds to several folks here, both padded and unpadded seeds as I do it with padding of thick napkins or similar. And both to the same person.

The results were correlated by Gardenmama and published here, and there was a significant difference in that the unpadded seeds had low germination, but the ones I padded and sent in small envelopes were fine.

When I send many packets of seeds to commercial places I always use larger padded mailers, for several reasons, and not just b'c of the possibility of crushed seeds. Or to SSE members who request many packets of seeds, but I'm getting out of the SSE listing bit with few exceptions

So I'm confident from that experiment that when I send 5 varieties in a small business envelope and pad them as I do, the seeds are OK.

All you have to do is to go through that germination thread as I did about two weeks ago to see that with seeds of the same variety one person will get 90% plus germination and another will get zero germination. In other words, the germination % for seeds of a single variety can vary widely.

And I have data somewhere from my last two large seed offers at GW where I laboriously recorded the germination % for every single darn variety I offered and always there has been huge differences in % germination of a single variety and that was the same when I was doing seed offers at AOL all those many years ago.

Summary? The USPS roller situation was checked, as I noted above, results correlated and padding the seeds as I do works just fine. Actually I don't want folks sending me padded mailers which is why on the first page of my seed offer I SAY not to send me padding anything.

I go back and forth trying to decide if I really want to continue doing these annual seed offers, for several reasons. Back in 2006 there were just a couple of thousand folks, probably less, and many switched from GW to Tville when it started in Jan of 2006. And almost ALL of those who switched were very experienced re tomatoes and all that goes with it.

The normal ratio of registed members to those who are actually active at a site is about 10 to 1, so 2,000 folks means just 200 are active. This data has been published and applies to almost all message sites.

Now there are close to 10,000 members here at Tville and this last seed offer I did here was very upsetting to me personally. I accepted far too many folks and had little time to get about 5-600 packs filled and labelled ASAP and i take the time to write the seed age on packs as well as any instructions for waking up older seeds, which I also wrote on the first page of the seed offer.

Then I start getting e-mails from some saying where are my seeds I need them by___________ when I've already said in the seed offer that I file the requests that come in by the date when they were sent in an attempt to even the playing field.

When I was doing my own seed production I made my offers in mid Nov to early Dec, and that was fine. but I can't do that now b'c some of the folks who help me also have other obligations.

How long do I want to continue doing this? I don't know. It was when i fell that I decided to concentrate on varieties that would be new to all, or most.

I already have received some new ones for 2013 but right now don't have a clue, with one exception, how seed production went with those who helped me this past summer.

I can tell you that if I do another seed offer it will be very different from the way I've done it in the past.

In the past I've listed what I expect participants to do:

Contributing data to a germination thread as well as a Fall performance thread and have said to sow the number of seeds I say to sow forseeds of different ages as posted in the seed offer, and end up saying that I know my seed offer is different from others in asking for such feedback but I don't want to be distributing wrong seeds, which is why I do it.

What I've been trying to do is to give folks a chance at some new varieties and the reason I don't send out huge amounts of seeds is b'c I expect folks to save their own seeds, but it becomes quite clear to me in many instances that some folks sow just a couple of seeds hoping what I sent will last a few years and have no intention at all of saving seeds.

Most of what I list here, in recent years, I've also been SSE listing, and some I list here I don't have enough seeds to SSE list. Since SSE members pay money for seeds and those here get them for a couple of stamps I do think my moral obligation is to the SSE listings first.

Another comment was made above about my refusing to send extra seeds to those who had germination problems, and that's true, I have said that to a few folks. I have several obligations myself, to SSE members, to the goold folks at several seed sites and personal friends. This year I ran very low on many varieties and couldn't even satify some of the SSE requests 'bc I'm supposed to send out 25 plus seeds for SSE requests and in some cases, as some here know, I cit a deal to send less seeds.

With 25 seeds I can satisfy one SSE person but 5 Tville persons with fresh 2011 seeds. So I've made my choice.

If I send replacement seeds to those who didn't get good germination the first time I have no assurance that it won't happen again b'c in most cases I don't KNOW the reasons why the first germinations were not good, not using artificial mix, leaving seeds in wet towels too long with mold problems, and on and on it goes.

I end up saying, and you can see this posted in my last seed offer in January, that if someone can't agree to what I've asked for then perhaps my seed offer is not the one for them. Fair enough say I.

What am I supposed to do? Cross reference the user names I've copied down as participants with feedback from them and then ban those who don't give feedback?

Sorry for the additional semi - rant but me nerves are on edge right now as to what I should do about any additional seed offers here at Tville.

[Marko]

I grew 2/2 varieties I received.

Pervaya Lyubov
PL, early maturity, small/medium sized pink beefsteak. Medium sized plant, good yield, good taste (very good compared to other early varieties). Very prone to cracking.

Mala Bishka
RL, maturity early midseason, huge plant with uniform, blemish free, round medium sized red tomatoes. Looks almost like a hybrid. Very meaty, low seed count. Taste is very good. Plant is very productive and tolerant to heat (like most tomatoes from Macedonia).

This season was very hot and dry here so I can't tell anything about disease tolerance of both varieties, they are perfectly healthy so far.

[ContainerTed]

It sounds like Maiden's Gold may have gotten crossed somewhere in seed production efforts. Think about the chances of that happening. I can think of no other answer.

I grew two plants of my own seed stock this year and they both grew true to type. I've heard from one other who also got the small red fruit. I have also heard from a number of folks who got the correct profile and loved the taste. The pictures from this year's Tomatopalooza showed a fruit with correct shape and color.

To eliminate any embarrassment to anyone (myself included), please PM me with your seed source and results. This will help to pin point the source of the incorrect seed. To make up some for the loss of your efforts, I will, at a minimum, make true to type seed available to anyone who would still want them.

Don't give up on this one of a kind golden yellow beefsteak. It is truly worth the effort.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by ContainerTed

It sounds like Maiden's Gold may have gotten crossed somewhere in seed production efforts. Think about the chances of that happening. I can think of no other answer.

I grew two plants of my own seed stock this year and they both grew true to type. I've heard from one other who also got the small red fruit. I have also heard from a number of folks who got the correct profile and loved the taste. The pictures from this year's Tomatopalooza showed a fruit with correct shape and color.

To eliminate any embarrassment to anyone (myself included), please PM me with your seed source and results. This will help to pin point the source of the incorrect seed. To make up some for the loss of your efforts, I will, at a minimum, make true to type seed available to anyone who would still want them.

Don't give up on this one of a kind golden yellow beefsteak. It is truly worth the effort.

Ted, so Tam got the correct variety, actually from two different seed sources but both plants were "sickly" and Marina with two plants didn't get the correct variety.

And I SSE listed your Maiden's Gold in the 2012 Yearbook and Neil G got seeds from me and said.......large, golden, meaty and delicious.

So maybe not all is lost.

The person who did the seed production also got the correct variety from seeds I sent him, and to date, after helping me out since 2004 there's been no cross pollinated seed that he's ever sent me as detected here or where I've sent seeds to. Two years ago his Fish Lake seeds didn't germinate well and one other variety and he realized that it was too hot when he did so, so now puts his fermentations in his air conditioned Office.

And b'c of that and B/c I love Fish Lake I got a different source for that one.

My notebook is not right here near me, but I did send Maiden's Gold to some others, as I recall, so will have to check out what they got.

Still no call from the electrician.

Edited to add that who knows what can happen with seed production and possible crossed seeds. Maybe three years ago a lot of folks requested seeds for Pervaya Lyubov and ONE person got ONE offtype stray seed which could have been a crossed seed or a stray known seed on the table top when I packed seeds. I have only one variety on the tabletop at one time to help prevent that from happening, but no one is perfect.

[troad]

Carolyn,
As reported in the germination thread: Indian Stripe x possibly Daniels
All 10 seeds planted 4 germinated.
All failed to survive my damping off problems at the start of this year.
Regards'
Len

[habitat_gardener]

I planted late, and I have no fruit yet.

Podorok Fei, 3/5 germinated, growing 3 plants.

Fish Lake Oxheart, 4/7 germinated, growing 2 plants.

Vince P1, 3/6 germinated, none survived (shading mishap -- a whole cold frame of seedlings got fried).

Hays and Ambrosia, 0/5 germinated.

[ContainerTed]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Ted, so Tam got the correct variety, actually from two different seed sources but both plants were "sickly" and Marina with two plants didn't get the correct variety.

And I SSE listed your Maiden's Gold in the 2012 Yearbook and Neil G got seeds from me and said.......large, golden, meaty and delicious.

So maybe not all is lost.

The person who did the seed production also got the correct variety from seeds I sent him, and to date, after helping me out since 2004 there's been no cross pollinated seed that he's ever sent me as detected here or where I've sent seeds to. Two years ago his Fish Lake seeds didn't germinate well and one other variety and he realized that it was too hot when he did so, so now puts his fermentations in his air conditioned Office.

And b'c of that and B/c I love Fish Lake I got a different source for that one.

My notebook is not right here near me, but I did send Maiden's Gold to some others, as I recall, so will have to check out what they got.

Still no call from the electrician.

Edited to add that who knows what can happen with seed production and possible crossed seeds. Maybe three years ago a lot of folks requested seeds for Pervaya Lyubov and ONE person got ONE offtype stray seed which could have been a crossed seed or a stray known seed on the table top when I packed seeds. I have only one variety on the tabletop at one time to help prevent that from happening, but no one is perfect.

Carolyn, I think you and I are absolutely on the same page. What I am doing is to guarantee those who would like to try it again from original source seed have the opportunity to do so. We may never find the cross, but we can "start again". The problem could be within your processes and it could be in mine just as easily. All that is needed is one tomato from one plant somewhere that is crossed and here we go. Fortunately, I still have some of the original seed from the one tomato that came from the 22 year old seeds. And, after this year, I have a good supply of new seed from this year's production. I have, up til now, held off sending out a lot of seeds so that you could "introduce" it.

It is significant that Neal got the real deal and didn't get the apparent cross. I'll have to figure that one out.

In the final analysis, at least the fruit the people got tasted good.

[MarinaRussian]

Carolyn and Ted,

I wish it was my fault, that I got the wrong fruits, but I'm REALLY careful, when it comes to labeling my plants, at all stages. I didn't plant any other red, small-fruited varieties

[ContainerTed]

Originally Posted by MarinaRussian

Carolyn and Ted,

I wish it was my fault, that I got the wrong fruits, but I'm REALLY careful, when it comes to labeling my plants, at all stages. I didn't plant any other red, small-fruited varieties

I'm quite sure the problem is in our supply of seeds to you. Don't be concerned with your system of controls. More folks than you have encountered this same problem.

[MarinaRussian]

Originally Posted by ContainerTed

I'm quite sure the problem is in our supply of seeds to you. Don't be concerned with your system of controls. More folks than you have encountered this same problem.

That makes more sense, Ted. Such a weight off my shoulders

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by MarinaRussian

That makes more sense, Ted. Such a weight off my shoulders

Not to worry Marina, and I wanted to update Ted. Taking a break here, still waiting for the electrician to call but Phil, my UPS man stopped by to deliver my nuts, which are neccessary for me to watch the US tennis open and said he saw Will working at a place this AM.

Ted, I checked my notebook and seeds for your variety went to:

Quite a few folks outside the US. THey contact me by e-mail and then I have to copy down the addresses and also their requests.

Seeds sent for trial to Adam Gleckler, Glenn Drowns at Sandhill and possibly Linda at TGS although the list of seeds I sent her isn't in this notebook.

Ah, and I almost forgot that from the seeds I sent Craig the plant he sent back of your variety was spot on for what it should be.

I can see a stray seed getting into a pack, but I'm bewildered by Marina getting two wrong plants.

Ah well, this will all sort itself out with time and I'll send a quick e-mail to both Adam and Glenn asking what they got and hopefully some of the others who also requested Maiden's Gold will post here as well.

And Marina, I have to get back to you on the large and small heart seeds you sent. Will do when I not only have time, but remember to do it.

[k3vin]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

That gives me the opportunity to do a MAJOR vent here as to the issue of seed germination which has two parts, one seed quality and age versus the experience of the persons doing the germinations.

Carolyn, my feedback was not intended as negative criticism. I can only assume that by soliciting feedback your intent is to gather honest opinions. Argh, the pitfalls of communication over the internet. My apologies if you perceived my comments negatively.

That being said, I trust my germination method and I stand by my subjective observation.

To eliminate confounding, why not save back a small sample of each variety you offer and send them to a trusted, scientifically minded person to set up germination tests following standard, controlled methods. I'm sure you could find a willing volunteer with little effort.

Once again, I appreciate you offer. Constructive criticism offered FWIW, no malice intended.

[retiree]

Just to keep the record straight. My seeds came from Ted Maiden himself.

Those Maiden's Gold were wonderful.

Neil G. (Canada)

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by k3vin

Carolyn, my feedback was not intended as negative criticism. I can only assume that by soliciting feedback your intent is to gather honest opinions. Argh, the pitfalls of communication over the internet. My apologies if you perceived my comments negatively.

That being said, I trust my germination method and I stand by my subjective observation.

To eliminate confounding, why not save back a small sample of each variety you offer and send them to a trusted, scientifically minded person to set up germination tests following standard, controlled methods. I'm sure you could find a willing volunteer with little effort.

Once again, I appreciate you offer. Constructive criticism offered FWIW, no malice intended.

Kevin, when you say that those who do seed production for me should reevaluate what their fermentation methods are I take that quite seriously. And I don't have time right now to list who those folks, by letter and not by name, so you know what their collective backgrounds are.

As to doing pre=germination tests, if you were an SSE member you'd know that the deadline for submitting data for the next Yearbook , which is in early Nov, leaves many of us who live in the northern climes no time at all to do germination tests.

And for my seed offer I often don't even get sent the seeds until around Xmas time and I can't do germination tests here at home and no time to send a sample of those seeds to others for same, which would just delay even more when I post my seed offer, which is a problem for many already since it's usually later than others do theirs.

So that's one of the reasons I DO the germination thread so I know where the problems might be and can then do somthing about it before reoffering those seeds again, as I explained above using just the one example of Fish lake Oxheart.

Hope that helps the quandry I'm in all the time.

And I know for a fact that some others who do seed offers don't do germination tests before some of them offer the seeds as an offer or in trade, so I don't see myself as being terribly unique in that regard.

Lastly, I was reviewing the user names for participants in my last seed offer, and there you were, near the end, actually one of the last 10 I included b'c I said what the heck, why not include all that I got e-mails from b'c I thought I had enough seed.

And then came the e-mails pleading for inclusion with all sorts of explanations. And I just had to turn those folks b'c at that time I'd closed the seed offer.

As I said above, do I really want to go through all of this again?

Edited to add that I just rechecked my user list of participants b'c I knew there was more than one Kevin, and you weren't in the last 10, you were at the end of the 10 before that. Just want to be correct in what I say. ( smile)