Compost and timing - Page 2

kilroyscarnival · November 2, 2012

So at lunchtime I dumped my trashcan of compost. Other than a few long weeds which had not broken down, it does look kind of nice in a composty way. It smells nice and earthy. It was funny to see some pieces of food hadn't broken down at all, including some green romaine shreds I tossed in there two days ago and covered. Still bright green and not the least wilty. Maybe I should keep it out there.

I had been collecting coffee grounds from the office, but hadn't added those for a while. I read last night that they pack a nitrogen punch, so I re-layered, adding the bunch of shredded mail I had put in a pop-up laundry hamper, some coffee grounds, and the existing compost which was now maybe a bit too moist on the bottom from yesterday's watering.

I may go to the wire setup, and use the garbage can as a container in which to grow fingerling potatoes. That way Edgar's effort making the holes won't have been wasted.

Heritage · November 2, 2012

Ann, it sounds like you are getting good results with the method you are using now. Cold composting will give you the same end result as hot composting, it just takes longer. Also, with cold composting you will have to be more vigilant keeping out weed seeds or any diseased plant material since the temperature won't get high enough to kill them. On the plus side, you don't have to worry as much about the C:N ratio with cold composting. Both methods will yield gold for your garden!

You might also consider a worm bin!

Steve

kilroyscarnival · November 2, 2012

Thanks, Steve. It is all part of the experiment, I guess.

As for the worm bin, it does sound interesting. I have to remind myself that I am just starting all this. I don't want to dive in too deeply all at once. That was my brother, when we were younger, and he left many unfinished projected and abandoned hobbies in his wake.

But I think that, when I get my raised bed set up, I will buy some red wigglers to put in there, whether or not I do a worm bin. I got a few earthworms in a bag of organic soil I bought at Lowes, so took that to be a good sign. A coworker told me they sell worms at Walmart, with the fishing stuff, but I spotted a little bait store on Craigslist which is not too far away. Think I would rather support the local guys.

Just glad I didn't kill a whole bunch of seedlings last night... I tripped while carrying the tray of cups in the semi dark back yard. Some got knocked over. The Jaune Flamme got partially covered and it is less than two weeks old. But I brushed off the dirt, righted them, and gave them a little drink and they look ok today. I have to keep reminding myself. I think I planted my store bought plants one month ago. Seeds three Sundays ago and two Sundays ago respectively. It seems like I have been fussing over these little babies forever already!

Heritage · November 3, 2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by kilroyscarnival

T
That was my brother, when we were younger, and he left many unfinished projected and abandoned hobbies in his wake.

Ann, I might be your long lost brother... did your parents ever notice a missing child shortly after the Barnum and Bailey Circus passed through Orlando in 1972? If so, please tell Mom I've been meaning to write.

Steve

Heritage · November 3, 2012

Also, don't confuse red wrigglers with earthworms... red wrigglers can become invasive here. I don't know about Florida.

Steve

kilroyscarnival · November 3, 2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by Heritage

Ann, I might be your long lost brother... did your parents ever notice a missing child shortly after the Barnum and Bailey Circus passed through Orlando in 1972? If so, please tell Mom I've been meaning to write.

Steve

Ha, good one. Think you might be someone else's long lost bro, then. I grew up in Pennsylvania and I am pretty sure we only got the lesser circuses. Or else we were just cheap.

Note to self: do earthworm homework.
I didn't see any worms when I dug the garden, though it was still pretty hot, and the ground wasn't loose or amenable.

dice · November 6, 2012

[coffee grounds]
The "nitrogen punch" is a myth. They have just about enough
nitrogen to supply bacteria that are digesting the carbon in
them. (Nothing like a manure, or grass clippings, or fish meal, etc.)

Earthworms are fond of them, though, so it is still worth adding
them to compost, worm bins, or lasagna beds just for their
organic matter contribution. Just do not expect them to balance
a high-carbon material like leaves, straw, shredded paper,
or wood chips. Using them exclusively for a mulch is not
recommended, because they crust as they dry out after a rain
or watering. Mixed with more chunky stuff or mature compost,
no problem.

[compost inoculants]
There are actually two kinds. One is a "compost maker" that one
can find 4-5 lb boxes of at big box stores for about $5US. It is
usually an organic, often chicken manure based fertilizer.
4-4-2 is a common N-P-K value. This will compensate somewhat
for an excess of leaves and straw compared to the quantity
of "green" (high nitrogen) materials in a compost pile. I have
simply scattered it over 6 inches of leaf mulch that I was turning
under in the spring with good results, for example.

The other kind is a microbial compost inoculant intended to get
a pile composting faster. Those are usually more expensive and
not necessarily needed (although they are probably pathogen-free
and might be preferred for a commercial composting operation).
Tossing a shovel full of dirt out of one of your garden beds into
the compost pile or bin will "inoculate" it with whatever
decomposing bacteria are native to your area (without waiting
for wind and rain to do it).

[earthworms]
This is a legacy document, and a lot is likely known about them
now that was not known about them when this was written.
But this document was based as far as I can see on empirical
observation of earthworms, and so whatever was true about
their behavior then is still true now:
http://journeytoforever.org/farm_lib...oliverToC.html

I noticed that red wigglers accumulate here in piles of moist
leaves sitting around in the yard and gardens. It is apparently
a favored environment for them. Adding some granite dust
(and maybe any other kind of rock dust, like greensand or
dolomite) will raise the earthworm populations in compost.

kilroyscarnival · November 7, 2012

Thanks for all the information, Dice.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dice

[coffee grounds]
The "nitrogen punch" is a myth. They have just about enough
nitrogen to supply bacteria that are digesting the carbon in
them. (Nothing like a manure, or grass clippings, or fish meal, etc.)

Just to clarify, I was referring to their addition to a compost bin, not as a direct soil additive or top dressing. I had read both an extension flyer then the articles put out by OSU regarding coffee grounds and compost. Mostly, I plan on using them because I have easy access to a small but steady supply of them, through collecting used grounds at the office plus home, whereas I don't have ready access to manure, and with the turn of weather, my green lawn clippings are on the downtrend. http://oregonstate.edu/ua/ncs/archiv...coffee-grounds

Regarding earthworms: it is just that I never remember seeing them here in natural central Florida soil, which is either clay or sand, and blasted by summer heat and heavy rains. When I dug a foot down I didn't see any. Finding some small worms in my store bought garden soil was a bonus.

dice · November 7, 2012

[worms]
They run away from the summer heat here, too. I remember digging
for them for fish bait in midsummer as a youth. We would have to
go around and find some shady spot on the north side of a building,
where the ground stayed moist longer, to find any in the top foot of
soil. Where there was full sun, even with plants growing on top of
the soil, you could dig down two feet and not find any. (They were
still there, though, because night crawlers would come up to the
surface when it rained in summer. The varieties that can be found
at all depths in the soil had simply dug down deeper for the season.)

[coffee grounds]
http://www.sunset.com/garden/earth-f...0400000016986/

So that study estimated carbon-nitrogen ratio in coffee grounds at
24:1. Ideal compost is 25:1, so they almost balance out, to where
the coffee grounds barely add any more nitrogen than bacteria
digesting them use.

Here is a guide where you can find N-P-K percentages
on a lot of ad-hoc materials:
http://www.thegardenguy.org/html/npk.html

What that table does not tell you is what is the actual
carbon-nitrogen ratio of those materials. If you look
at chicken manure in the table, it actually has less
nitrogen than coffee grounds. But it has almost no carbon
(no undigested cellulose), so its nitrogen can practically
all be used to digest other, higher carbon materials when
it is mixed into a compost pile. And thus a pile of half leaves
and half chicken manure will heat up a great deal faster
and probably get hotter than half leaves and half coffee grounds.

That is all I was saying. I do use coffee grounds and I do not let
them go to waste, but I do not depend on them to contribute
more nitrogen than bacteria use digesting them.

You might find this "Extreme Composting" thread interesting
(it is kind of interesting simply as a saga, even if one is not really
in a position to apply any of Forerunner's techniques in one's own
garden):
http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/gen...omposting.html

kilroyscarnival · November 7, 2012

Oh, my, that *is* extreme. No judgment, just I won't be decomposing any offal anytime soon. I am a bit too urban for easy access to chicken manure also. I guess this composting thing is going to be the slow route for me. Thanks for your patience with the info.

kilroyscarnival · November 9, 2012

By the way, the loveliest thing about having a compost pile going is that it seems to make leftovers less shameful. Depression parents, we didn't waste much food. I bought a beautiful small watermelon at my favorite produce spot, and it was disappointingly flavorless. But at least the rind, and whatever's leftover, will be compost fodder (and could apparently be a worm treat if I go that route.) Curiously, the canteloupe from the supermarket is delicious. It's usually the reverse.

Still waiting for said produce place to get back their "antique peppers" - which look like an Italian frying pepper. Going to save some seeds.

habitat_gardener · November 10, 2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by kilroyscarnival

By the way, the loveliest thing about having a compost pile going is that it seems to make leftovers less shameful. ...

Yes! It's hard to throw out anything from the garden (or farmers' market) that has gone bad, but the consolation is that it will go into the compost.

Alpinejs · November 10, 2012

Kilroy.....I think I am a lot like your brother in that I never finish anyth

Alpinejs · November 10, 2012

Anyone have experience composting pine needles. I have a big pile of needles that
came from two pine trees since removed because of the mess they created. Some of the
needles are 15 yrs. old and haven't decomposed. I just added a whole pick-up load of
horse manure and we are adding kitchen scraps, coffee grounds, etc. in hopes that
it will help. They must ultimately decompose or my woods in Canada would be feet deep
in needles. I had a worm composting bin on my deck, but when I left last spring for
6 mos. in Canada, I put them in the needles. The summer here was VERY hot and we
get virtually no rain in the summer, so.......I only found about five worm survivors but
with the manure, coffee, eggshells, cardboard, etc., I think they will reproduce big time.

dice · November 10, 2012

If chickens are scarce, you might find people around town that
have pet rabbits (and rabbit manure to get rid of). It is a lot less
messy to work with than chicken manure.

Is this not semi-coastal Florida though, meaning warm and rainy?
I would expect that what you have in most abundance
is growing green stuff. If the grass in your yard is not growing
at this time of year, everything else must be. Green weeds with
soft, not woody, stems will provide what grass clippings normally
would in terms of carbon-nitrogen ratio.

November 6, 2012	#22
dice Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: PNW Posts: 4,743	[coffee grounds] The "nitrogen punch" is a myth. They have just about enough nitrogen to supply bacteria that are digesting the carbon in them. (Nothing like a manure, or grass clippings, or fish meal, etc.) Earthworms are fond of them, though, so it is still worth adding them to compost, worm bins, or lasagna beds just for their organic matter contribution. Just do not expect them to balance a high-carbon material like leaves, straw, shredded paper, or wood chips. Using them exclusively for a mulch is not recommended, because they crust as they dry out after a rain or watering. Mixed with more chunky stuff or mature compost, no problem. [compost inoculants] There are actually two kinds. One is a "compost maker" that one can find 4-5 lb boxes of at big box stores for about $5US. It is usually an organic, often chicken manure based fertilizer. 4-4-2 is a common N-P-K value. This will compensate somewhat for an excess of leaves and straw compared to the quantity of "green" (high nitrogen) materials in a compost pile. I have simply scattered it over 6 inches of leaf mulch that I was turning under in the spring with good results, for example. The other kind is a microbial compost inoculant intended to get a pile composting faster. Those are usually more expensive and not necessarily needed (although they are probably pathogen-free and might be preferred for a commercial composting operation). Tossing a shovel full of dirt out of one of your garden beds into the compost pile or bin will "inoculate" it with whatever decomposing bacteria are native to your area (without waiting for wind and rain to do it). [earthworms] This is a legacy document, and a lot is likely known about them now that was not known about them when this was written. But this document was based as far as I can see on empirical observation of earthworms, and so whatever was true about their behavior then is still true now: http://journeytoforever.org/farm_lib...oliverToC.html I noticed that red wigglers accumulate here in piles of moist leaves sitting around in the yard and gardens. It is apparently a favored environment for them. Adding some granite dust (and maybe any other kind of rock dust, like greensand or dolomite) will raise the earthworm populations in compost. __________________ -- alias

November 7, 2012	#24
dice Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: PNW Posts: 4,743	[worms] They run away from the summer heat here, too. I remember digging for them for fish bait in midsummer as a youth. We would have to go around and find some shady spot on the north side of a building, where the ground stayed moist longer, to find any in the top foot of soil. Where there was full sun, even with plants growing on top of the soil, you could dig down two feet and not find any. (They were still there, though, because night crawlers would come up to the surface when it rained in summer. The varieties that can be found at all depths in the soil had simply dug down deeper for the season.) [coffee grounds] http://www.sunset.com/garden/earth-f...0400000016986/ So that study estimated carbon-nitrogen ratio in coffee grounds at 24:1. Ideal compost is 25:1, so they almost balance out, to where the coffee grounds barely add any more nitrogen than bacteria digesting them use. Here is a guide where you can find N-P-K percentages on a lot of ad-hoc materials: http://www.thegardenguy.org/html/npk.html What that table does not tell you is what is the actual carbon-nitrogen ratio of those materials. If you look at chicken manure in the table, it actually has less nitrogen than coffee grounds. But it has almost no carbon (no undigested cellulose), so its nitrogen can practically all be used to digest other, higher carbon materials when it is mixed into a compost pile. And thus a pile of half leaves and half chicken manure will heat up a great deal faster and probably get hotter than half leaves and half coffee grounds. That is all I was saying. I do use coffee grounds and I do not let them go to waste, but I do not depend on them to contribute more nitrogen than bacteria use digesting them. You might find this "Extreme Composting" thread interesting (it is kind of interesting simply as a saga, even if one is not really in a position to apply any of Forerunner's techniques in one's own garden): http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/gen...omposting.html __________________ -- alias Last edited by dice; November 9, 2012 at 05:17 PM. Reason: of any -> any of

November 10, 2012	#30
dice Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: PNW Posts: 4,743	If chickens are scarce, you might find people around town that have pet rabbits (and rabbit manure to get rid of). It is a lot less messy to work with than chicken manure. Is this not semi-coastal Florida though, meaning warm and rainy? I would expect that what you have in most abundance is growing green stuff. If the grass in your yard is not growing at this time of year, everything else must be. Green weeds with soft, not woody, stems will provide what grass clippings normally would in terms of carbon-nitrogen ratio. __________________ -- alias

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November 2, 2012	#16
kilroyscarnival Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 614	So at lunchtime I dumped my trashcan of compost. Other than a few long weeds which had not broken down, it does look kind of nice in a composty way. It smells nice and earthy. It was funny to see some pieces of food hadn't broken down at all, including some green romaine shreds I tossed in there two days ago and covered. Still bright green and not the least wilty. Maybe I should keep it out there. I had been collecting coffee grounds from the office, but hadn't added those for a while. I read last night that they pack a nitrogen punch, so I re-layered, adding the bunch of shredded mail I had put in a pop-up laundry hamper, some coffee grounds, and the existing compost which was now maybe a bit too moist on the bottom from yesterday's watering. I may go to the wire setup, and use the garbage can as a container in which to grow fingerling potatoes. That way Edgar's effort making the holes won't have been wasted.

November 2, 2012	#17
Heritage Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: San Diego Posts: 1,255	Ann, it sounds like you are getting good results with the method you are using now. Cold composting will give you the same end result as hot composting, it just takes longer. Also, with cold composting you will have to be more vigilant keeping out weed seeds or any diseased plant material since the temperature won't get high enough to kill them. On the plus side, you don't have to worry as much about the C:N ratio with cold composting. Both methods will yield gold for your garden! You might also consider a worm bin! Steve

November 3, 2012	#20
Heritage Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: San Diego Posts: 1,255	Also, don't confuse red wrigglers with earthworms... red wrigglers can become invasive here. I don't know about Florida. Steve

November 9, 2012	#26
kilroyscarnival Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: Orlando, FL Posts: 614	By the way, the loveliest thing about having a compost pile going is that it seems to make leftovers less shameful. Depression parents, we didn't waste much food. I bought a beautiful small watermelon at my favorite produce spot, and it was disappointingly flavorless. But at least the rind, and whatever's leftover, will be compost fodder (and could apparently be a worm treat if I go that route.) Curiously, the canteloupe from the supermarket is delicious. It's usually the reverse. Still waiting for said produce place to get back their "antique peppers" - which look like an Italian frying pepper. Going to save some seeds.

November 10, 2012	#28
Alpinejs Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Alpine, Calif. in winter. Sandpoint Lake, Ont. Canada summers Posts: 850	Kilroy.....I think I am a lot like your brother in that I never finish anyth