whats this nonsense about a hybrid heirloom?

Dar,

I can understand the almost mechanical ability of one part of a grafted plant to transfer traits to the other part of the plant, but if I read the link correctly, it doesn't imply the ability to pass those newly acquired traits to successive generations genetically.

Ted

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by Fusion_power

That is like asking whether a tomato is a fruit or a vegetable. Botanically, it is a fruit. But the U.S. supreme court says it is a vegetable. Fruit happens to have a specific definition something along the lines of "seed bearing ovule". Vegetable is NOT defined. It only denotes the way a plant is used. So a tomato can be described as a fruit (seed bearing ovule) and a vegetable (consumed as part of a meal, but not as a dessert). By the same logic, Hybrid is a defined term and Heirloom is not.

I'm not trying to make an argument over it, just pointing out that while it is confusing to call something a "hybrid heirloom" it is not necessarily wrong. From my viewpoint however, any first generation cross should always be called a hybrid.

DarJones

Sorry Dar,
I got to side with Jennifer on this one. Just because there is a certain amount of vagueness in the term heirloom, doesn't mean that applying it to a F1 cross is not absurd.

There are a lot of words in English that have a certain amount of vagueness and it does make me angry when companies abuse these to market their products.

Take ancestor. It could mean all your direct lineage of parents grandparents etc.., It could mean The forfathers of your race, or country. There are many possible ways to use the term. But never is your sister an ancestor.

I remember years ago an arguement that tried to claim a certain pesticide was "organic" because it was derived from petroleum and petroleum is the reminents of ancient plants and animals millions of years ago. Or that ALL fertilizers are chemicall fertilizers because everything is technically made from chemicals.

Abuses of that nature were so common that the government was forced to come in and legally define what "organic" means. Now that of course didn't stop people from abusing the term. You can buy "organic" eggs at the market right now that are layed by chickens cooped 20,000 into one small barn, with a hole cut in the side leading to a 10 X 10 dirt run. What it did do is make it so we can't take to task those abusers because they technically followed some guideline. Those chickens have "access" to the outside even though they may never even been outside ever in their lives. Not to mention of course a whole huge unneeded beauracracy, fees to become "certified organic", etc etc etc.

You have to take people abusing the term heirloom to task for abuses like this. It isn't right and we certainly don't want the government comming in and telling us at Tomatoville what an heirloom is. One thing for certain. A F1 hybrid is NOT an heirloom. No more than your sister is your ancestor or a twinkie is a natural food.

[Fusion_power]

a twinkie is not a natural food

and here I had my hopes set that twinkies were natural!

I haven't eaten a twinkie in at least 30 years.

But on a more serious note, I can agree with you that the word 'heirloom' is being abused. I still stand by the statement that it is not a clearly defined term.

Ted, If you dig around, you will find some research where a white tomato plant was grafted onto a rootstock that was for a normal red tomato. The fruits on the white tomato plant were pink. They saved seed of the white tomatoes (that were pink from graft translocation) and grew them out on their own roots. They produced pale pink tomatoes. Can you explain it?

DarJones

[nctomatoman]

I think "hybrid heiroom" is an awful term, personally. Heirlooms are items that can be saved and passed down - of course hybrid by definition can't be. If anything, "heirloom hybrid" makes more sense in the case of very old, still offered hybrids like Big Boy that have been around since the 1940s.

In these days of marketing above all else (read profit above all else), nothing - absolutely nothing - surprises me any more. Cynical? Yup - that;s me!

Originally Posted by Fusion_power

and here I had my hopes set that twinkies were natural!

I haven't eaten a twinkie in at least 30 years.

But on a more serious note, I can agree with you that the word 'heirloom' is being abused. I still stand by the statement that it is not a clearly defined term.

Ted, If you dig around, you will find some research where a white tomato plant was grafted onto a rootstock that was for a normal red tomato. The fruits on the white tomato plant were pink. They saved seed of the white tomatoes (that were pink from graft translocation) and grew them out on their own roots. They produced pale pink tomatoes. Can you explain it?

DarJones

Thats why I said I am not a geneticist. I can't explain it.

I read the company that makes Twinkies will probably file for chapter 13 bankruptcy. Very little hope of surviving current and expected economic conditions. Another American institution biting the dust with more to come. They had to stop contributions to their employee pension fund and lay off many long term employees. The remaining employees are now on strike. If you like Twinkies which I also haven't eaten in thirty years, you better get them now or they will be gone forever. Sometimes I think people are willing to shoot themselves in the foot so they can stop thinking about their horrible headache.

I was trying to remember the name of a high end dessert served in the classiest of restaurants utilizing Twinkies as the base of the recipe. I want to say it is Do- mon-ksue or something like that. I guess that will also be history.

Ted

[nctomatoman]

Two things that I always ponder when thinking about Twinkies - it seems to be a food so stuffed with preservatives that it lasts essentially forever (think I saw that in a movie - supersize me, perhaps?)....and that it is one of those foods that gets batter dipped and deep fried at local fairs! (nope - I've never tried one of those!)

[fortyonenorth]

I think it would be more appropriately called an "heirloom style" hybrid - emphasizing the traits that we all know in love in heirlooms (varied sizes, shapes, colors and, especially, taste) along with the reliability and disease resistance of a hybrid.

[Heritage]

Originally Posted by Fusion_power

If you dig around, you will find some research where a white tomato plant was grafted onto a rootstock that was for a normal red tomato. The fruits on the white tomato plant were pink. They saved seed of the white tomatoes (that were pink from graft translocation) and grew them out on their own roots. They produced pale pink tomatoes. Can you explain it?
DarJones

I'd be interested in seeing that study, if anyone has a link to it. Thanks.

Steve

[Worth1]

I can poudly say I have never had a twinky.

Worth

Originally Posted by Worth1

I can poudly say I have never had a twinky.

Worth

Worth,

It's okay! We don't expect "hybrid" people of French/English-Native American ancestry to eat Twinkies. Somehow, it would seem almost sacrilegious. I would think of you as more of an Escargot, Tea & Crumpets, or Pemmican person.

Ted

[jennifer28]

Ted, If you dig around, you will find some research where a white tomato plant was grafted onto a rootstock that was for a normal red tomato. The fruits on the white tomato plant were pink. They saved seed of the white tomatoes (that were pink from graft translocation) and grew them out on their own roots. They produced pale pink tomatoes. Can you explain it?

DarJones

A chimera that happened from the graft?

Also I do object to Gurney's using the term "hybrid heirloom" to market that particular tomato. If you are OK with it, then you are, of course, entitled to your opinion

[casino]

Nonnas prize and her description from the gurneys catalog.

Zones: 3-9 annual
Height: approx 6 - 8 ft (needs staking)
Spacing: 18-24 inches between plants, 3 -5 feet between rows
Depth: 1/4 inch
Spread: Indeterminate
Sun/Shade: Full sun
Germination: 8-10 days
Days To Maturity: 80 days from transplant
Yield: 100 lbs/100 foot row
Fruit: Orangey-red with a green shoulder ripening to full rich red

YIELD: this caught my eye, WOW this hybrid vigor producing 100 pounds of fruit per a 100 foot row. Thats like saying 1000 pounds per acre. LOL

Joe

[ddsack]

Also I do object to Gurney's using the term "hybrid heirloom" to market that particular tomato.

It would have been more correct to to reverse the words and market it as an heirloom hybrid. Or more honestly as an heirloom derived hybrid.

Anyone who is monkeying around breeding their own tomatoes using at least one heirloom as a parent is technically making an heirloom hybrid, but we don't call them that because of the confusion of terms. Gurney's is just taking advantage of popular marketing language, like other companies sticking "organic" on everything.

[SEAMSFASTER]

Originally Posted by jennifer28

This has been on Gurney's web site for a while

Nonna's Prize (VFF) Hybrid Tomato
This “hybrid heirloom” variety has the unique ribbed teardrop shape of a traditional Italian heirloom type, but it delivers so much more!
$5.99

"hybrid heirloom!?" I know some companies and people will do anything to sell something, but come on...

In my mind, hybrid and heirloom are mutually exclusive terms. So "hybrid heirloom" would by an oxymoron.

However, upon reading the ad at Gurney's, they include the statement:

Looks Like an Heirloom, Grows Like a Hybrid!

Then they put "hybrid heirloom" in quotation marks, presumably to assure potential buyers that they really do know the difference. I take it as kind of a tongue-in-cheek comment, though definitely a ploy to urge the reader to press the "Add to Cart" button.

Carolyn Male's Book, 100 Heirloom Tomatoes for the American Garden, has a 6-page discussion under the heading, "What Is an Heirloom Tomato Variety". I consider this treatise to be authoritative on the subject and I won't rehash it here. It does make for interesting and motivational reading!

I (as I'm sure many other Tomatovillan's would) bristle at the assumption/premise/insinuation/"common knowledge"/generalization that hybrid tomatoes grow better and produce better than heirloom tomatoes.

Ignorance, inexperience, narrow-mindedness, inflexibility, pride and stubbornness are character traits that help perpetuate inaccurate statements like this. Can we call this

TOMATO BIGOTRY?

[mrdoitall]

Should it not be a hybrid heirloom cross? What ever it is it sure is ugly.