"Adaptation to the Garden"

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by feldon30

That's the kicker. It all sounds very intriguing, but I'm not sure enough research has been done to definitively show that the success of a tomato variety in successive years in a garden can be attributed to anything other than improvements in the gardener's skillset, improvements in the soil, and climatic variation.

In the next few years as at home genetic testing becomes affordable, I think a lot of heirloom tomato mysteries will be solved and the kind of research being mentioned here could be crowdsourced much as the Dwarf Project did to dwarf tomato varieties.

I wish I was as optimistic as you are that home DNA kits will be available soon, but I doubt it, and I don't even think they will help solve problems since it's not the same as gene sequencing, which can do so. I do know a bit about DNA and iding genes and seqencing, etc.

As for me, as a B day present to myself I'm going to participate in theNational Geographic Genome project so I can find out a bit more about my genetic heritage. Western Europe for sure, but we all have some Neanderthal genes lurking in our DNA and I'll also find out if I have any Denisovan genes as well. You send back swabs with your saliva.

Changing topics now, I ran across what I thought was an interesting thread at GW having to do with with adaptation, and for others who might be interested, here it is>

http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/l...5825825.html?9

Finally, Feldon, I'm trying desperately to catch up on my reading and posting here and elsewhere but haven't forgotten that I said in a post above that I said I'd get back to you.

Carolyn

[feldon30]

The point that Redbaron made to me in a PM is, this may be more about genes present in a cultivar that are activated based on different circumstances such as climate. In this case, we're not talking about the genetics themselves changing, so much as different genes switching on and off as needed. I can certainly accept that.

Originally Posted by carolyn137

I wish I was as optimistic as you are that home DNA kits will be available soon, but I doubt it, and I don't even think they will help solve problems since it's not the same as gene sequencing, which can do so. I do know a bit about DNA and iding genes and seqencing, etc.

Ok so when I say DNA testing kits, I realize that the current ones only look at a few genes and are not capable of printing out the entire sequenced genome. I guess I'm hoping for a breakthrough in technology where we can read DNA from plant matter like a computer scanner.

My first test? Aunt Gertie's Gold and Summer Cider. Then Terhune and Brandywine Sudduth's.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by feldon30

The point that Redbaron made to me in a PM is, this may be more about genes present in a cultivar that are activated based on different circumstances such as climate. In this case, we're not talking about the genetics themselves changing, so much as different genes switching on and off as needed. I can certainly accept that.


Ok so when I say DNA testing kits, I realize that the current ones only look at a few genes and are not capable of printing out the entire sequenced genome. I guess I'm hoping for a breakthrough in technology where we can read DNA from plant matter like a computer scanner.

My first test? Aunt Gertie's Gold and Summer Cider. Then Terhune and Brandywine Sudduth's.

Given the history known for Terhune, I think it may well match with Brandywine ( Sudduth) but I'm not so sure about AGG and Summer Cider, the latter being bred by Tom Wagner and sent to Kees Sahin in the Netherlands in 2007.

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/wiki/Summer_Cider

Whereas AGG was first introduced in 2004 by Chuck Wyatt in about 2003/2004.

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/w...ertie%27s_Gold

But who knows for sure.

Also, if you read the link I put up in post 16 about epigenetics, the same point was made about turning on and off of genes as Red baron made to you, but so far that's been seen only with peppers as I recall from the link. The jumping gene control I find very provocative.

Carolyn

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Also, if you read the link I put up in post 16 about epigenetics, the same point was made about turning on and off of genes as Red baron made to you, but so far that's been seen only with peppers as I recall from the link. The jumping gene control I find very provocative.

Carolyn

Provocative! I love your language skills. I would have said very exciting new research field! But to answer your claim that it has been seen only in peppers so far..a bit of an update. It has now been seen in tomatoes too. I posted the link above. It is all still a bit sketchy and still exact causations are being researched, but it has been seen, that's for sure.

I think the main thing is that it is a complicated blend of all the things posted so far. That's makes it difficult to determine exact causations for any single trait seen. The genotype, phenotype, (micro-organisms, insects, weather, fertility of the soil etc..) mutations, crosses, dormant and active genes, natural and man made selection.... It is all subtly linked to each other. You can't easily pull one cause out by itself without everything else coming with it!

Provocative! Yes, I like that term you used a lot!

[habitat_gardener]

Originally Posted by feldon30

...I'm not sure enough research has been done to definitively show that the success of a tomato variety in successive years in a garden can be attributed to anything other than improvements in the gardener's skillset, improvements in the soil, and climatic variation....

Yes! That's exactly what I think when I hear someone saying they're getting improved versions of a variety because they've been saving seed for 5 or 7 years. I know it's true in my gardens: I get better yields, better-tasting tomatoes, and larger tomatoes each year mostly because I'm becoming a better gardener and my soil is getting better. This is true even at a community garden where gardeners in neighboring plots often complain about "bad tomato years." Most of my tomatoes at that garden are, in fact, new to me, so selecting and saving seed is not a factor.

The old adage that "organic gardeners don't grow plants, they grow soil," is the reason why I haven't had bad tomato years but many gardeners at neighboring plots have. In the relatively small sample at that community garden, I've noticed that gardeners who spend time working on their soil have the best results. I've gone so far as to transfer soil from another garden (on my bicycle!), which I'd spent years developing, as well as adding homemade compost every year.

[Fred Hempel]

With regard to "better" tomatoes resulting from a better skillset. This is definitely something that occurs. But, I think most of us are also aware that "too much" care can also cause problems.

Many a tomato grower has learned how to make big, green plants (with too much nitrogen and too much water during fruiting) and the result is less production, and mealy/watery tomatoes.

And it's not because the plants suddenly refused to adapt and get better anymore.

Similarly, the disease problems that my plants struggled with in the past couple years were my fault, and not the fault of de-evolving varieties. Although, I did have a very nice opportunity to select for disease resistance. So maybe my plants were still evolving upward, in spite of me.

[amideutch]

Here is a quote from our own Tom Wagner concerning adaption in regards to a variety Triple Climber that was brought to Alaska and grown by the same gardener for 25 years.

Anytime someone keeps a variety isolated from others for an extended time, the tomato variety should be considered unique in many ways.

As a plant breeder, I have deep respect for varieties grown in a particular region for a long time. Acquired characteristics, adaptation, bottle necking of the germplasm, small mutations, elimination of the original bulk population diversity, the template of Fairbanks, Alaska growing conditions is a valid point of identity.

Ami

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by amideutch

Here is a quote from our own Tom Wagner concerning adaption in regards to a variety Triple Climber that was brought to Alaska and grown by the same gardener for 25 years.



Ami

I remember him saying that, and I've known Tom since 1990 but I'm not remembering that he ever used in his breeding efforts such varieties grown in isolation for many years.So perhaps a theoretical musing.

After doing a LOT of research on the migration of the Cherokee on the Trail of Tears as they went from FL, GA, S and N Carolina to Oklahoma, I found there was no ONE trail and groups left the main trail and settled in some southern states. Arkansas being one of them.

I also have some links somewhere of present day folks of Cherokee descent who are still living there. Which brings me back to the Variety Indian Stripe, which has been grown in isolation there for many years, and does differ from Cherokee Purple in only minor ways.

Yes, I also know of the GF allele analyses that showed that Cp was not 100 years old as John Green was told when he got the original seeds and gave them to Craig L.

And without confirming it, bad memory here, I think the Cherokee migration started in about 1848/

And yes, I know that some think that CP might have come from Phillipines # 1, seeds sent from there to both the U of Arkansas and also to a breeder in Canada, and possibly "escaped" from the U of Arkansas to be the Cp ancester, but the dates don't fit.

I guess what I'm saying is that I'm having a hard time wrapping my brain around all of this as to CP and IS, and the whole idea of something being grown in isolation as connected in some way with local adaptation. Let's put it this way, I'm not yet a believer.

Carolyn, who is being inteviewed tomorrow by the Albany Times Union about heirloom tomatoes and is expected to define what heirloom means, and is shuddering at the attempt to do so. But as a former teacher she thinks she can muddle along on that.