Disappointing Heirlooms?

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by beeman

Update on my tasteless Greenhouse Toms.
Of the two photos attached, the lefthand Tom is supposed to be a Cherokee Purple, righthand a Paul Robeson.
To my untrained eye they both look the same? what do you think?
As to taste, a slight improvement, but nothing exciting, almost store bought. So unless someone can suggest what's going on I think it's back to Hybrids, for me.

Left picture stems are up, right picture stems are down, so no way to make comparisons, and on the right picture one looks red and one looks pink, at least to me.

Have you checked epidermis colors?

What was the source of your seeds?

I've grown thousands of varieties, OP, some heirloom, some not, and my share of hybrids, and I've concluded that the best of the heirlooms are far better than the best of the hybrids.

Just wondering why you would go back to hybrids, from which many of us started from, me included, based on the ID/comparison of just two varieties, especially since there are way over, well let me get thelink,

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/w...Black_Tomatoes

400 plus so called black tomatoes.

Again, maybe the seed source is the problem ?

Carolyn

[bower]

Beeman, just wondering how ripe are the fruit when you're tasting them?

I have been really underwhelmed by CP that was a little under-ripe. I also found that other blacks were at their best flavour, for me, if I let them finish ripening to the peak - the now or never point.

Not sure about CP, but Indian Stripe will turn a very dark plum colour - really purple - if you let it stand past the usual 'firm ripe' stage. Its sweetness and complexity is then at the max, at least for fruit in my growing conditions. This can take several extra days of ripening, depending on the temperature. It's true you have to watch closely to make sure they don't go past the point, but that is one of the advantages of growing heirlooms yourself, you find the point and enjoy them when they are at their best - and it's different for different fruit.

[beeman]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Left picture stems are up, right picture stems are down, so no way to make comparisons, and on the right picture one looks red and one looks pink, at least to me.
Have you checked epidermis colors?
What was the source of your seeds?
I've grown thousands of varieties, OP, some heirloom, some not, and my share of hybrids, and I've concluded that the best of the heirlooms are far better than the best of the hybrids.
Just wondering why you would go back to hybrids, from which many of us started from, me included, based on the ID/comparison of just two varieties, especially since there are way over, well let me get thelink,
http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/w...Black_Tomatoes
400 plus so called black tomatoes.
Again, maybe the seed source is the problem ?
Carolyn

Just one reason to raise this thread, and that's to get your experience.
I did say at the start of this thread, this is my first year and to be frank it's been a real disappointment all round.
Apart from the taste, the plants do not perform as advertised. Two plants are really dwarves, one Costoluso turned into a plum which is a BER magnet. Another turned in a determinate when it should be inter.
The two Tom photos are way off from what they should be, looking on Google Images they are nothing like shown, both should be much darker. These are not blacks at all.
I have written to the supplier, but until I get an answer I cannot commit to commenting on who they are.

[beeman]

Originally Posted by bower

Beeman, just wondering how ripe are the fruit when you're tasting them?
I have been really underwhelmed by CP that was a little under-ripe. I also found that other blacks were at their best flavour, for me, if I let them finish ripening to the peak - the now or never point.

I did wait until really ripe. These are greenhouse grown, so I don't have to pick at blush then wait with them on the counter. In fact I can't believe how soft these are when ripe, they certainly wouldn't travel very far before collapsing.
What I'm disappointed at is the wrong colours, I ordered blacks for a reason and these are not.
There are other problems as well, not as advertised.
At least going back to Hybrids does mean I'll get similar results as those advertised.

[Father'sDaughter]

I agree with the others -- you may just need a better seed source. Hopefully the vendor you purchased from responds to you.

And yes, heirlooms can be fragile and don't travel well, which is why you rarely see them in supermarket produce sections.

[Heritage]

Beeman,

I think I was your seed source for Cherokee Purple, MagiQo, and Costoluto Genovese? If so, have you been trying to contact me?

Steve

[b54red]

Beeman the so called black tomatoes don't always look very black especially before 90 degree weather sets in. Early in the season even down here where it is much hotter many of my black tomatoes look more like light brown, purple, or dark pink. The blacks that I am picking now are getting really dark for the most part but we have had some really hot dry weather which really darkens the fruit. You may also need to cut back on the moisture for the blacks to help them achieve better flavor. Of all the tomatoes I have grown they are the most susceptible to weak washed out flavor if they receive too much water. I find their flavor intensifies with too little water and lots of heat.

If your mix is just slightly more alkaline that will also weaken the flavor. I have noticed that spots in my garden where the ph is below 6.5 that the flavor intensity is greater from those tomato plants. I have been using Texas Tomato Food for the past two years and even in my container plants I noticed a pickup in flavor along with production; but from the looks of your plants production isn't the problem. Those are gorgeous plants.

Bill

[bower]

Another cause of 'wrong colour' fruit could be excessive heat, may be more of a problem in the enclosed greenhouse, as it is in mine this year with outdoor temperatures in the high 20's and humidex in the 30's (C). Temperatures in direct sun under glass are much higher than ambient. Blotchy or uneven ripening, yellow shoulders and patches that don't colour up can result from too high temperatures. The enzymes involved in producing ripe colour/taste have been inactivated in the damaged part. Google for "YSD" or "Yellow Shoulder Disorder". Your fruit shoulders look more yellow than green afaict.... could this be the cause?

[Worth1]

I don't even know why black tomatoes are called black.
I have never seen a black tomato.
What I have seen is a whole ton of purple tomatoes.
As for texture you cant expect them to be sturdy it just isn't in their genes.
If they were ferm all of the tasteless shipping hybrids would be replaced by good tasting heirlooms.

I grow a few good hybrids myself along with open pollinated tomatoes.

Sorry for your disappointment.

Worth

[beeman]

So much information to consider. It will take time to absorb all these necessary changes I'll have to make.
Thanks for all the comments.

[Cole_Robbie]

Soil makes flavor just as much as genetics. I have grown heirlooms in poor soil that taste much worse than hybrids grown in good soil.

[Ed of Somis]

I see you live in Canada...so maybe your fruit is just starting to ripen there. I have been picking maters for 2 1/2 months. The reports above about "first fruits" tasting watery is true for me also. In addition...do not let these maters get over-ripe. They get mushy and washed out. I learned that varieties like CP and Carbon are picked with green shoulders.

[AKmark]

Beeman, I also live in the far north, and in the past, have struggled with certain varieties of tomatoes. In short, heirlooms grown in a good environment can have mind blowing yummy taste, but hybrids can be excellent too, and certainly are easier to manage, they also usually have an edge in cosmetics. You said you may just want to go back to hybrids, so here are a couple you may or may not have tried.
I have grown a couple hundred varieties in the same near perfect environment and this hybrid is always tasty and are never blown away by tastier heirlooms. Early Girl hybrid for red, and this year I added Momotaro for pink. I have grown Early Girl for more than 20 years, and it seems they have possibly( who knows though, a memory thing) tinkered with the variety. The last couple of years they have been outstanding, no complaints from me. This year I tried Momotaro, it is mouth watering perfect fruit, sweet with a tomato ka-wap.

Popular scrapped hybrid short list, that I have grown through the years, Jet Star, Trust, Charger, Big Beef, Celebrity, Fantastic, Super Fan., Better Boy, Big Boy, are not as good IMO.

[zipcode]

I find that many heirlooms don't perform well at all when watered seriously (like modern growing conditions usually are). They will quickly become bland and watery. Lots of fertilizer will help in this case.

[clkeiper]

To my untrained eye... they are two different colors. The tomato on the left (in the right picture) looks just like a CP ( which has a pink tone) the one on the right looks just like a PR ( which has that orangey/brick tone) . Inside they will also be different colors. Their texture is totally different from hybrid tomatoes. I think you are expecting something different from what they are, they are exactly what they are supposed to be. It just isn't what you were expecting.

My only thought is have you added any epsoms salt to the fertigation mix? Epsoms salt will increase the sugars in the fruit. Probably not the ones that are about ripe, but the ones that need to develop color yet.