Need recommendation for a tomato in the south.

[Rajun Gardener]

You're right Frank, we have to plant early and get a good crop before the heat and rain sets in. That advise goes for everyone in the sunburn belt come June/July.

[Dark Rumor]

I am trying to get several early varieties and mid-season varieties and plant early. My tomatoes get hit with leaf diseases every year so the late season tomatoes are tough to get to the finish line.

[frankcar1965]

Bill, I'm curious about what makes AL so bad for Fusarium, I'm squarely in cotton land which is ground zero for almost every disease and insect yet I never hear about Fusarium here. I never hear about nematodes either and we have sandy soil too, surely both are present but apparently not significant. Possibly it may be that everything including all the rivers come from the west? I don't know, one thing I do know is that the Red River valley has some of the most fertile soil there is in the country due to all the minerals from the west, it is all new and not leached.

[frankcar1965]

So far I have planted theset yeasterday and do not need to plant ANYMORE, I know 70 days is questionable for some but that is what was listed, and I only have a small plot so I will probably plant many of the Fireworks, I really liked them. I need to try to find earlier ones so to maximize the harvest. After they were over I planted watermelons and boy was that a mess in a small plot.

BIG BEEF I think one of the best hybrids if not the best
CHAMPION II New for me
SUPER SIOUX good
AZOYCHKA New
PINK BERKELEY TIE-DYE really good
FIREWORKS grew this before and really liked it
Gregori Altai Liked this one

[b54red]

Originally Posted by frankcar1965

Bill, I'm curious about what makes AL so bad for Fusarium, I'm squarely in cotton land which is ground zero for almost every disease and insect yet I never hear about Fusarium here. I never hear about nematodes either and we have sandy soil too, surely both are present but apparently not significant. Possibly it may be that everything including all the rivers come from the west? I don't know, one thing I do know is that the Red River valley has some of the most fertile soil there is in the country due to all the minerals from the west, it is all new and not leached.

I think it is only a really bad problem in the southernmost areas of the state. When I first started gardening we had some fusarium problems in this area but it has increased tremendously over those 40 years. I live in an area with an abundance of commercial growers and they have had to gradually move to more and more resistant tomatoes to get a good crop. The result has been the tomatoes grown commercially here are not like the ones 30 years ago when Atkinson, Rutgers and similar ones were the main crop tomatoes. Now it is varieties like Amelia and other super resistant tomatoes that don't taste nearly as good to me. A few years back I tried growing a whole bed of nothing but these resistant tomatoes in hopes of finding a decent tasting replacement for Big Beef which had become unreliable because of the third race of fusarium moving into our area over the past decade. I honestly hated all of them but the best of the lot were ones called Red Mountain and Amelia.
That is why I went whole hog into grafting onto rootstock with resistance to all three races of fusarium and nematodes.

I have no idea why you don't have fusarium in your area but just be thankful you don't. Maybe you live in the northern part of the state and your winters are just cold enough to keep it under control. I was always happy when we had a winter cold enough to freeze my beds solid because I knew that the fusarium would be much less of a problem the following season. I have a friend that does some truck farming and he doesn't have it nearly as bad as me but he only put that ground into gardening a couple of years ago. His next door neighbor whose garden is just a few yards from his has a terrible time with fusarium but he has been gardening in that spot for a long time. Even in seasons when the fusarium problems were really bad I could manage to make a decent crop with some heirlooms by putting out a lot of plants and some of them would withstand it long enough to make a fair amount of fruit while others just wilted away. It was just too frustrating for me because I like having fresh tomatoes for the entire season if possible and planting later was really difficult because as the season went along and the heat increased the nematodes and fusarium would kill the majority of young plants before they ever had a chance to set any fruit.

Over the years I did find a few heirloom varieties that did better than other heirlooms and I tended to plant more of those. Some of the ones I had fairly good luck with were Indian Stripe, JD's Special C Tex, Spudakee, Druzba, Kosovo, Pruden's Purple, Stump of the World, Wes, Berkely Tie Dye Pink, and KBX. Now that I am using grafting I don't have to worry as much about fusarium and nematodes. Of course with the abundant pests and overwhelming foliage disease pressure I still have a lot of maintaining to do.

Bill

[frankcar1965]

Yes I'm in Shreveport as far north and west as you can go. Glad that we don't have it and do not want it at all since we have enough pests already. Possibly too it may be that we are drier and hotter than farther east, but only just a little. We don't have JB either and no Dogwood anthracnose either and that is a blessing.
Not tomatoes but I fear all the Crepe Mrytles in the US will succumb to the the bark scale that is taking hold here, there does not seem any way to stop it without constant treatment. Gone is the go-to easy tree of the south, it is a matter of time until it spreads. I already have it on my one tree and my neighbors have too, it is all over here and in TX.

[kygreg]

Thanks for correcting my old age memory; both are great schools, but of course I bleed Kentucky Blue.

[AlittleSalt]

Mentioning the early-mid season varieties - I agree. Texas and Georgia are a ways apart, but both have high heat and humidity. For here in the DFW/Waco area of Texas - if the tomato hasn't done its thing by mid July - it isn't going to happen. It only gets hotter in August.

[b54red]

I hate to repeat myself but this idea that no tomatoes can be grown in the heat of the southern summers is just not true. It took me some years to figure out the tricks that make it possible and to find the varieties that will set fruit in temperatures and at humidity levels that seem impossible. Tomatoes planted in May, June and July down here will never be nearly as productive nor nearly as big as the same plant set out at the last frost date in the spring but with the proper steps and care they can produce a decent amount through our hellish summers. The only things that will really make it not worthwhile if you want fresh tomatoes that time of the year is an inordinate amount of rainfall bringing in an inordinate amount of foliage diseases or a terrible infestation of spider mites. Since I grow in raised beds the heavy rainfall is not usually a problem if I spray the plants with the bleach spray between showers to slow diseases down before they can takeover and with my DE, Permethrin and soapy water spray I can usually control a spider mite infestation.

There are several steps or tricks that will help:

1: Prepare your planting area and wet it down good then cover it with a thick layer of cypress mulch before planting. This layer of mulch will keep the soil much cooler and slow evaporation and maintain a more level moisture level in the soil.

2: Try to set the plants out on a cloudy or rainy day or late in the evening. Make sure not to bury the plants deep. Don't water them until they begin wilting because you want to encourage vigorous root development as early as possible. I don't usually start giving them any fertilizer til they have been out at least a couple of weeks and when I do I only give them a diluted mix until they get a few feet tall and start really putting out some good bloom clusters. The plants will not look their best during this root growing stage but it is important not to pamper them too much early on because those roots will be so important later in the season when it may get really dry and hot.

3: Keep the plants pruned to improve air flow and sunlight and to make it easier to spray them with fungicides that need to be applied every 7 to 10 days. A plant that is too bushy will hide pests and diseases and is difficult to spray. Limit the number of stems and keep the suckers pruned. This will help encourage fruit set.

4: Feed the plants with Texas Tomato Food every 7 to 10 days. During the heavy blooming stage you can do this a little more often to help with fruit set. During this blooming and fruit setting stage never let the plants wilt. Too much water during this time is better than too little. Just one day of the plants getting too dry can cause massive blossom drop resulting in few if any fruits.

5: Aggressively take care of any pests like aphids, leaf footed bugs, stink bugs, tomato worms, or spider mites. In the hot weather these pests can affect the plant much faster and spread diseases.

6: Last but not least pick a few varieties that will set some fruit in hot weather. My favorites are Indian Stripe PL, Pruden's Purple, Arkansas Traveler, Spudakee, and JD's Special C Tex. I have other varieties that I try and sometimes they do okay and other times not so good; but I am constantly trying new varieties for summer planting and will find some others that do well. I have had some luck with lots of others like Druzba, Red Brandywine (TGS), Stump of the World, Brandywine Cowlick's, Donskoi, Anna Russian, Limbaugh's Legacy, and Royal Hillbilly but none of them perform like the first ones I listed. Big Beef was a hybrid that did well for me in the past as a summer plant.

It is a bit of extra work and in the heat it seems like more than a bit but it is well worth it to me to have fresh tomatoes during the worst months of summer and right up til they freeze.

Bill

[frankcar1965]

Bill I think we went through this before but for all practical purposes tomatoes do not set in high night temps. I do not want anyone to think they will get anything worthwhile with your very intense methods and risk feeling like a failure. Let's not risk this thinking with new tomato growers. Pollen denatures at high temps and there is nothing you can do to stop that and we never have relief from the heat ever. Also the amount of pesticides needed just to get a couple of poor quality fruits, if that, is unjustified. Much better to pull the plants and plant something else that can tolerate the heat. We in the south have a long season and can plant other crops that are easier and more productive after the tomatoes have stop producing.

[b54red]

Originally Posted by frankcar1965

Bill I think we went through this before but for all practical purposes tomatoes do not set in high night temps. I do not want anyone to think they will get anything worthwhile with your very intense methods and risk feeling like a failure. Let's not risk this thinking with new tomato growers. Pollen denatures at high temps and there is nothing you can do to stop that and we never have relief from the heat ever. Also the amount of pesticides needed just to get a couple of poor quality fruits, if that, is unjustified. Much better to pull the plants and plant something else that can tolerate the heat. We in the south have a long season and can plant other crops that are easier and more productive after the tomatoes have stop producing.

Tomatoes are a tropical plant and since I picked several hundred this past season that set during the months of July, August and September that rule doesn't always apply. My four ISPL plants that were set out the last week of June each produced and average of over 50 fruits before spider mites got to them. Only one of my Pruden's Purples did that well but the other three did make a moderate amount of fruit with some being surprisingly large for that time of the year. My Arkansas Traveler plants set a lot of fruit but they took longer to ripen but continued production right up until they froze. The vast majority of the fruits that came from this bed set their fruit when daytime temps were in the 90s and nights around 80. I know what is said about tomatoes not setting fruit when the temps are too high and I believed it for many years myself and only discovered how to get production in excessively hot weather by accident. A few varieties do have the ability to set fruit if treated correctly even in very hot weather.

I basically do the same method for all of my plants whether they are set out in the spring or summer except for putting down a heavier layer of mulch and watering more heavily and more often on the later planted ones. I think the extra water and the extra thick mulch keep the soil temperature down and I believe that has something to do with them setting. I grew my tomatoes the way you and most others do for over 25 years before I started staggering my plantings to try and get some fruit during the summer doldrums. My first reason for the staggered plantings was to replace all the plants killed by fusarium but with the number of plants I was losing I ended up setting out plants really really late. Since I was getting some fruit from certain of the varieties that were set out late when I went to grafting all my plants I continued the staggered planting. I concentrated more of the ones that had shown some inclination to set in the hottest weather for the later planting dates.

My first real success began with Indian Stripe, Spudakee and JD's Special C Tex. When I tried ISPL a few years back planted in the middle of summer I was stunned at the number of fruit it set. Pruden's Purple was another that amazed me with its ability to set fruit in the heat. 80% of the plants I set out in June and July are just five varieties of which I usually set out between 2 and 4 of each. The rest are ones that have shown some ability to set in the heat after most of the other spring plants have quit. I'm still searching for a few more to round off my heat setting list.

My biggest planting is still my first and second ones because that is when I have the best chance to get the more difficult varieties like Brandywines and other large pink beefsteaks to be the most successful. By early July our freezer is full of frozen tomato puree and I am only interested in what I get after that for fresh eating which is the way I enjoy tomatoes the most. By doing the things I listed in the above post I have been able to consistently provide a steady supply of fresh tomatoes from July through the first freeze since I started using only grafted plants. I'm sure my luck will run out one summer but so far so good. I did lose most of my plants one summer to Late Blight but that was years before I started grafting and another summer we had over 2 feet of rain in a couple of weeks and the Septoria just ruined most of my plants and what fruit I did get were mushy and split. I do not use any strong pesticides nor do I usually have to use them more than a few times during those hot months. The hardest thing about growing tomatoes in that intense heat is finding a time when it is bearable to go out and water, fertilize, pick, spray and prune.

I would not recommend someone try this with a huge bunch of tomatoes because it is a bit more intense and way too hot. The only other things that do well that time of the year are okra, hot peppers, peas and butter beans. I don't have the room nor the inclination to grow the last two and picking okra everyday is a real pain.

I had my biggest success with this method during the past very hot summer but that was because I used mostly a few varieties that had been the most successful in past heat waves instead of a large number of different varieties. All of my plants were pruned to single stems with Missouri pruning of the suckers and supported by drop lines and clips. I don't expect every summer to be that productive nor do I expect giant pretty tomatoes because the harsh summer heat can do to tomato skins what it does to mine.

[frankcar1965]

Ok, I'm not going to argue but I do not believe it and have never seen tomatoes set fruit under high night temps ever. And tomatoes are temperate highland plant from Peru and Ecuador where days are warm and nights are cool. There is a vast difference and they are not from the hot humid tropics, some peppers are but not tomatoes. You are the first person I have ever heard that says tomatoes set in high heat.

[b54red]

Originally Posted by frankcar1965

Ok, I'm not going to argue but I do not believe it and have never seen tomatoes set fruit under high night temps ever. And tomatoes are temperate highland plant from Peru and Ecuador where days are warm and nights are cool. There is a vast difference and they are not from the hot humid tropics, some peppers are but not tomatoes. You are the first person I have ever heard that says tomatoes set in high heat.

I never said that all tomatoes will set in high heat but that under the right care and conditions some varieties will. I have been doing it for years now and so it isn't just a fluke happening during an unusually cool summer. Of course it has been many years since we had a relatively cool summer. Since you are so doubtful I regret not taking some photos of my plants that were set out in June and July loaded with greenies in August this past summer. This was a particularly hot summer and we had only a few days from June through September that were actually below the mid 90s and the nights were in all likelihood hotter here in the southernmost part of Alabama than in northern Louisiana. I however do have some pics taken in 2014 in August of tomatoes picked and some of my plants. If you look close you will see lots of fruit of various stages of development on the plants and there is one photo showing the fruit picked between August 7 and August 10. I will try to take more photos this summer whether the plants do well or poorly.

Bill

1st photo was taken on August 14, 2014. Does this look like a plant that isn't producing tomatoes in the heat of August?
2nd photo was taken on August 10 of the tomatoes picked from Aug. 7 thru Aug. 10.
3rd photo was taken on August 10 of a bed of tomatoes planted on May 31st. The tomatoes visible all set between mid July and into August.
4th photo was taken on August 10 from the top of the garden.
5th photo was taken on August 14 of a fruit cluster.

[frankcar1965]

Well ok but I would have to see it to believe it, it goes against everything I have read and more importantly that I have experienced. I have grown a few that you have mentioned and they did not set in the heat for me. I can't find any station in s AL that is hotter than here in Shreveport.

http://www.weatherbase.com/weather/w...tes-of-America

[b54red]

Frank, I don't doubt that you have had that experience because it is the same one I had for nearly 30 years before I started trying some different things. It took me some years to find which things helped and which hurt. I found that planting deep only hurt despite all the recommendations for it when setting out in a hot climate. I also found that most of the recommended varieties for heat setting did poorly for me and were basically tasteless round hard hybrid tomatoes which I have no interest in. I did find out early that usually Big Beef would out perform most of the heirlooms in the hottest weather if the plant was kept well pruned and sprayed but if it was allowed to get bushy it wouldn't produce in the midsummer heat. I have tried and tried to coax a good fruit set out of Sudduth's in mid or late summer with only limited success and I do mean limited. Indian Stripe Pl on the other hand has even surprised me by how much fruit it can set in the heat.

The two things that have made the most difference for me in coaxing a good fruit set in the heat once finding some decent varieties for that purpose were the use of a heavy layer of cypress mulch and regular applications of Texas Tomato Food during the heavy blooming stage. The staggered planting dates also were a big factor because you almost always get the best fruit set from the first four or five clusters so it just makes sense that if you want fruit set in the most difficult times you need plants at the stage of development where they are most likely to set fruit. My older plants always drop off in production when the heat sets in although I still get some especially if I fertilize more often with TTF; but they will never produce like a young plant in those conditions.

Besides planting mostly varieties that I knew had a chance of setting good I think the dry weather and lower than normal humidity helped more than the extra heat hurt this past summer. When I set those plants out at the end of June and end of July I fully expected them to do far worse than normal because we were in a drought and it was extremely hot and that heat and drought continued until late fall. Instead of lower fruit set than normal in the summer I got higher fruit set so I can only assume it was the lower humidity because I pretty much did everything else the same. I believe that combined with the heat the really high humidity is a bigger handicap than the heat alone in getting good fruit set. I have found in the past that when the humidity dropped just a bit that I got better fruit set. The biggest problem with that extra dry weather is the appearance of spider mites which can be devastating if they are not dealt with promptly.

If you want to try ISPL and Pruden's Purple I should have plenty of seed if you want to experiment with growing a few set out in late May or June. I have already started my seed for my first plants and will start my seed for my second planting soon. The first planting seed are all pink or red beefsteaks. The second planting will be a mix of pinks, reds, and a few blacks. The plantings after that will be predominantly black varieties that have done well in the heat in the past and a few others mostly reds. My very last planting which will produce into the late fall will have a higher concentration of reds and pinks that have shown the ability to survive the late July or early August plant out like Arkansas Traveler and Limbaugh's Legacy along with some of the blacks like Spudakee, Carbon and Berkely Tie Dye Pink that ripen well in the cooler fall weather.

Some things you just can't do anything about like a very wet rainy season which spells disaster for most of the black varieties even in the early part of the season. Getting hit by lots of rain and Septoria or even worse Late Blight which is a danger for late planted tomatoes although I have had it hit my garden once in June but it usually arrives much later if it arrives. I lost around 25 plants in a couple of weeks to TSWV one year when the plants were loaded with young green fruit. I have had disasters with spider mites, leaf footed bugs, aphids, stink bugs and worms. All of these problems are part of gardening in my area but it is the combination of heat and humidity that is the constant enemy of good tomato production down here. All the little tricks I recommend are helpful no matter what time of the year you set your plants out down here and I wish I had known about them 40 years ago when I started. It would have saved me a lot of work, worry and frustration.

Just knowing how to use the bleach spray would have saved hundreds of plants over the years. Knowing about the cypress mulch would have saved me thousands of gallons of expensive city water had I been using it for the past four decades instead of the last half dozen or so years. Grafting onto fusarium resistant root stock would have saved hundreds if not thousands of tomato plants from an early death. Growing tomatoes is a constant learning experience and by the time you get pretty good at it you find yourself pretty worn down. I guess if I had known enough of these things it would have been too easy to be a true hobby.

Bill