Advice: SoCal topsoil & materials for raised beds?

[Suze]

I'd just like to offer some general suggestions as to soil/compost selection, even though I realize Thawley bumped this up for location specific suggestions.

Before I set up and pay for soil or compost delivery from anyone, I always go visit their place first (learned this the hard way from previous experience). I take with me a half gallon pot and a watering can. When I get there, I ask to look at a pile/bin of what I want. Then I feel and sniff the product. If it smells bad, forget it. Now, I don't mean bad as in earthy, or bad as in pungent in the case of manure or lightly aged compost-- I mean something that smells off, rotten, funky, and gamey. Also, if they have any sort of problem with me asking questions and looking around a bit, that tends to raise a red flag.

I've found that folks that are passionate and confident about their product not only won't have a problem with you snooping around a bit, they will understand your concerns and even encourage it. If they complain re your attempts at exploration, walk away. Now, if they are a bit busy, that's fine -- but the important thing is that they will let you look around on your own even if they don't have time to babysit you.

So, if I get past those initial stages, I take that half gallon pot and fill it up with the soil or compost mix I was considering purchasing. Then I use the watering can to water that pot (important, imo).

After a couple of minutes, feel the soil in the pot and observe how it drained. Light, fluffy, and free-draining is the goal. If it seems concrete-like, say 'no thanks' or ask to look at another soil mix and be sure to re-do the same test on it.

Or go elsewhere.

I'll also say that "topsoil" is basically a meaningless identifier, no regs in place for that term. Much of the bagged cheapie stuff one could pick up at a box store labeled as "topsoil" is pretty substandard. So is the topsoil from many bulk sources, so pick and check out your source carefully.

[Thawley]

Thanks for the vivid descriptions Suze.

Part of the problem with wanting to do this right the first time is that this IS my first time. The experienced senses of look, smell and feel you possess for evaluating quality soil are senses I lack. I've just never done this before. Left to my own judgement, I'd be just as likely to wind up with a load of fill dirt as a healthy mix of soil.

I enjoy the education and will proceed with caution. Still, I'd love to hear about any specific companies or sources for soil other locals have had experience with.

[Luvgardening2]

Hi, I also live in Southern California-San Gabriel Valley. I am out your way alot because I volunteer w/ a dog rescue that way.

I can offer some advice and a few suggestions. What not to use: Do not use the compost offered for free. It is free for a reason. I got some and there was GLASS in it. After that, I do not touch the stuff.

There is a place in Chino, use to be around here in Baldwin Park-RWP. I purchased some of their soil and it was NOT good. A lady at the Arboretum raved about it and it was not to my liking.

You may want to try a place called Orange County Farm supply off of Chapman in the City of Orange. I buy the Professional Pro-Mix there for my EarthBoxes, they have a Very LARGE selection there. They could probably steer you in the right direction.

I like the compost from Armstrong's from EB Stone. I also go to a place near me that has topsoil but it may be far for you. It is called Rainbow. They also sell organic soils by Dr. Earth. I use it quite often. For my last bed, I used the blend from the square foot gardening. 1/3 vermiculite, 1/3 compost and 1/3 peat moss or coir. It gets pricey but I have gotten very good results.

If you have any other questions, you can PM me and I will try to help out.

Nancy

[Jeannine Anne]

This looks the the right place to ask my question'

We have built raised beds , fairly low lying ground so we don't want to take any soil from the pathways between, we have to fill them. It is on a community garden and we have rules about what we can bring in. No soil unless Csoil which is in small expensive bags, we have unlimited access to aged manure and are allowed to bring in peat, not Perlite, we can use some potting soil but not if it contains Perlite, plus the expense would be very great as there areabout 16 raised beds.

Using the peat and manure, what do you think, oh and we have access to what is called mulch but when I look close it seems to be bark and chopped leaves,still some green, could be silver birch I think or cottonwood, etc rather than just bark.

Could anyone advise me please.

Oh and it has to come in in bags as there is no access to the plot for a truck and we cannot dump a load in the carpark!!

XX Jeannine

PS we also have straw

[dice]

Bags are going to be expensive, but you probably need something
like perlite if not that. Lava rock, rice hulls (I do not think Ontario
is a big rice-growing area), pumice, pine bark, coarse sand, even
pea gravel would help, just something to add some persistent drainage
and large pore air space to the manure and peat. The manure and peat
will be fine the first year, but it will decay to silt as time passes. Silt is
very fine structured, packs down from the rain, loses air space, and
becomes a not very good growing medium (roots need air, too, as well
as water and nutrients).

Could you park a truck in the carpark and unload it with
a wheelbarrow, wheeling it to your raised beds? That would allow
you to bring in something in bulk to add drainage and air space
without dumping it in the carpark as a staging area.

[Jeannine Anne]

No, we van't park, we have a small car and a delivery man woulddn't wait for the time needed.

The trouble is we are not allowed to bring anything in that is not native to the area, we could get away with sand I think but not pea gravel or lave rock.

So if I used sand, manure and peat, can you advise on amounts.

Say for eack 4 cubic foot of peat..how much manure and sand.

The manure is always available on site unlimited so can add it next year .

What do you think?

XX Jeannine

[shatbox]

Ok,
So here is the definitive answer. I posted something about this just yesterday and today went out to get the soil for the raised beds I put in today.

Soil
On mission rd just west of the 5 freeway there is a compost and mulch site (open Tues/Thurs 9-4ish). The "mulch" contains biosolids (composted human waste), and the compost (griffith park) may or may not. No pesticides (it is almost all from tree trimmings) and the sanitation district posts content/contamination reports. Last month, the compost was trucked in from a commercial supplier and was of fantastic (slap yo mamma) quality (all veg matter - Bacterial dominated - better for veggies), as of today 6/30, there was a shipment of griffith park compost (composted bark - fungal dominated - good for trees), but the quality is not as good as past months as it is still course and has not fully matured (i'm there at least once a month). After doing some research most bagged (home ★★★★★/lowes) compost/mulch contain biosolids too (feel free to look too).

For my own raised beds I went today to the compost site and found the commercial stuff gone, so I went to Whittier Fertilizer ( there are also places like LGM in El Monte - wholesale but will sell but will fill a pickup if you can get one - by appointment) and got the planting mix (still wood based, but good luck finding all veg). It costs about $29 a cubic yard (fits in a small pickup) and the bagged version goes for about 7 each. Got my truck filled and a 15lb bag of fertilizer for $50 cash. (P.S. ran into Jimmy Williams there today - he sells at the Hollywood farmers market, has a new book out, and started the Goose Creek tomato Laurel sells.)

Bed 1 - Bagged, purchased from home ★★★★★. - Good results
Bed 2 - Griffith park compost - Ok, mixed results, see below
Bed 3 - Planting mix from commercial supplier - wait and see.

In the past I have used the griffith park compost but the results have been mixed. When mixed with native soil, my plants did ok... but it wasn't until I focused on making my own and doing my best to work on my soil without looking for outside compost that things have taken off. I still pick some up - mostly for side dressing corn n stuff. I have found water makes the biggest difference - both hydration and nutrient availability - get a good watering plan.

OK, so here's my opinion. Free city compost -Side dressing... yes. Top dressing..yes. Potting soil/fill...no. Too heavy. A lot of the bagged (HD/Lowes) stuff is heavy too. and expensive. Amendment...yes, but blend well.

Plants
I have purchased from Laurel before. In fact, that is how I first got started. I was loyal, drove all the way down there to pick up plants/hit the sales. TV (tomatoville) turned me on to winter sown and I have never looked back. Now I send them money and whatever seeds I can give.The generosity of TV is amazing too. I cannot speak highly enough of both! I still go to sales like tomatomania, but I say save your money and gas. Start from seed when possible, thanks to TV it's not hard, and try places like Sunset Nursery, San Gabriel nursery, green arrow, etc... also do the farmers markets like Hollywood or Santa Monica.

Ok. That's it. Hope that helps anyone.


sBox!

[dice]

[Jeannine Anne]

What kind of manure exactly? How long has it been sitting,
composting, when you use it? Is it like a year old or more?
Or is it delivered fresh a week before people start using it?

(Horse, rabbit, llama, and alpaca start out loose with lots
of air space. Cow and poultry tend to cake and have about
as much air space as mud when wet. So you need more peat,
or leaf mold, coir, etc, with cow or poultry manure than you
do with the horse manure and so on, to keep it loose when
watered.)

Aside from the initial mixture, one thing you can do is pile up
layers of straw and manure in fall, to get it a foot deep. This
will protect the soil from compaction over the winter. In spring
you can just turn it under and plant. (You may need to add some
dolomite lime, etc, depending on soil pH, how much calcium and
magnesium the native soil under the raised beds has, etc. A soil
test should tell you that.)

[Jeannine Anne]

Hi Great that sounds good Dice, thank you.

We were not expecting to use the beds before 2012 as it is taking along time to get everything done so we inteneded to forget about this year.

The manure is horse I think but it is well matured, at least a year when delivered I am told. There is no heat in it and in fact it is very dry really.

So we have peat, unlimited manure ,straw 3 bales and we can bring in sand so it seems we are all set.

Thank you so much, I really appreciate the help.

XX Jeannine

[dice]

I would probably go with 3 parts horse manure, one part peat, 2 parts
sand in that case. The peat takes a few years to break down to silt,
the sand will not break down at all, but it should not be enough sand
to accomodate pathogenic nematodes (there is a northern strain of
those that was mentioned in an article in a Canadian agricultural
symposium that I came across).

The horse manure will break down in summer heat when moist, so you
will have to work some more organic matter in during spring each year
to restore air space lost to decay of the manure and gradual decay of
the peat. If you have built up a winter mulch in fall, or if you grow winter
cover crops like winter rye and hairy vetch that put on growth in fall
and spring before turning them under a couple of weeks before planting,
that should restore air space that was lost to decay the previous summer.

[Jeannine Anne]

Thank you again, we will be doing a cover crop and tilling it in and it is usually winter rye. My husband has been there daily , the ground is very uneven there are places where raised beds have been so as he is placing the boxes and levelling there is a bit of soil available as well, not much maybe 1/4 box full on each one,(there will be 18 in all). The sand will be fun as it will have to come in via small sacks but we will get there one bit at a time.

Thank you again.. you have been super!!

XX Jeannine

[rinigado]

We picked up a 1/2 yard load of bulk compost at Whittier about a month or more ago. Loved the price, and the consistency of the compost seemed good, but the water that drains from our raised planters still has an amazingly strong sewage smell.. I'm wondering if either they sell different grades of compost (didn't think to ask at the time), or it didn't cook long enough, or if that's just the way it is. Seems awfully foul so far. Wish I could find a retailer that just sold green waste compost around LA, but haven't had any luck locating one so far.

[dice]

A lactobacillus inoculant may help with the odors (advice from an Indigenous Microorganisms guru from Phillipines):
http://www.ehow.com/how_5631274_make...-microbes.html

[rinigado]

thanks for the suggestion dice. In addition, I take back any concerns I had over the compost from whittier. Compost smell aside, I talked with them and they only use green waste in their standard compost, so I guess it's just the small of compost doing what compost does.