Is this little thing really what's destroyed my gardens?

[z_willus_d]

No, I have not yet sprayed for the pests. I'm planning on something for that along with the next kelp/fert foliar.

Neem seems to work well on things like aphids, but it would eliminate sulfur spray for a month. It does nothing for mites (in my experience).
-naysen

[Heritage]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

No, I have not yet sprayed for the pests. I'm planning on something for that along with the next kelp/fert foliar.

Neem seems to work well on things like aphids, but it would eliminate sulfur spray for a month. It does nothing for mites (in my experience).
-naysen

Naysen.

If you ID mites on your experimental plants, please PM me.

Steve

[Paradajz]

hi again.

ok, i really ''did'' the photos to the best of my abilities, sorry, not very used to work with comps that way

N., please check all the leafs you notice looking like the ones i marked- unusually curled, distorted, especially around the area of the central vein, with a good magnyfier if possible, back sides especially.
those sugest early mite forms, there might be troubles to find it at all without a quality magnyfier if there aren't plenty of moving ''grown ups'', which could be the case. it means that you need to monitor those leafs even if you don't find any at first, with your current temps a larger number of moving grown ups should appear in some 7- 10 days after the photo was taken, thats why the pest spray should be perfect with II in a couple of days. it's a typical ''summer'' miticide, will do the job with both possibly already present buggers and the ones which could/would find it shortly, as a preventive.

[Paradajz]

ok, some more explanations, trying to additionally define the process we're trying to implement here.

roughly, there would be 3 main- stream ag ''cultures'':

number 1 would be the conventional one,with typical highly developed ag practices, a long and well tested empirical data.
the most efficient one, due to it's full- wide and well developed use of available tools, ferts, pesticides, fungicides, etc.
it's main advantage is in using synthetics, in other words, it's always known what's used there and the outcomes are highly predictable.

number 2 would be a total organic one, with all- range natural tools and high attractivness due to it's absence of use of highly toxic chemical stuff.
not the most efficient one, mostly due to the disease management issues, insufficient means of full control ( both pests&diseases and ferts ), etc. the absence of synthetics there make it highly unpredictable regarding procedure- outcome issues.
actually, the numerous failiors at this field usually come from an enormous amount of knowledge it absolutely requires to be implemented, and which is rarely acquired. also, there is also often an insufficient amount of understanding the possible trouble- creating potential of organic/natural tools present, mostly caused by the same reasons- insufficient amount of knowledge and insufficiently developed standard procedures and practise.

number 3 would be an attempt to transfer from n1 to n2, as close as possible and in the most efficient manner, by developing those procedures and practise, using the synthetic stuff at min. levels and in a strictly controled manner, optimal timing, etc., and with constant efforts to ''standardise'' organic/natural procedures to the maximum level, aiming for ''maximising'' the enormous potential of those.
it's the integral one i was mentioning earlier, and just so it would be clear, it's an ''official'' science and practise, certified in a very strict system of regulations.

ok, that was the general part, but what does this mean for N.'s V./F. issue and his garden in general?
maybe the easiest way to explain through a comparisson on disease management issues of n1 and n3 here:

the conventional ag always has the same approach to the disease management, i would name it ''a locked single- doors principle''. it's very simple: find the cure and apply it, ''lock the doors to the pathogen and finish the job with it''. e.g., if there is L.T. on your plants spray myclobuthanil and resolve the issue, if neccessary use the other stuff you already know will close the issue.
the integral one is a bit different, i'd name it ''a thousand closed&open doors principle''. it means: define all factors of influence on the matter available to your actions, and go close the doors to the pathogen for every and each one of them, and just the same go open the doors for your plants where ever you can.
e.g., keep the Ph suitable to plants/unsuitable to the pathogen, put sulfur where your plants need it and the pathogen doesn't, etc. etc. etc. eventually, with such an approach do the maximum to create healthy plants but also an environment which will ultimately make it hard for pathogens to do their stuff.
so there is no ''locked doors'' there, just the closed ones, for which you can count that the pathogen will be able to open, but will lose it's power somewher in the halls while doing that for a thousand times, and eventually and hopefully you'll get it your way.
further more, in general disease management, it is predictable where and when the ''closed doors'' will not work, and therefore the ''locking'' principle is permitted, but always with a prefferance for using min. total amounts of synthetic stuff, with optimal timing, and eventually, for using nature- made stuff, such as copper and sulfur for example, to the optimal possible range.

finally, V./F., those are specific in a way that the conventional one still has no cure, no doors to lock there, due to the in- currability of those once they reach a plant. in such cases it always tends to go for resistance, but unfortunatelly it was shown that the pathogens also always tend to overcome it, and in some cases, as with V.R2, it takes quite some efforts and troubles while a resistance can be acquired. it's been quite a number of years since the race was identified, but still we haven't found the key to lock those doors yet.
also, a generaly development tendency of such fungals, bacterial and especially viral ones isn't promising at all.

that's why i'm trying to show you how you can ''close it'' in a different manner. simply, everything you've done and will do there is intended to close each and every door you can find to the buggers, while opening as many as possible to your plants.
also it's a general and a strict rule that, whenever there is a situation where opening the doors to the plants will also open them to the pathogens, always open them. it's a very simple issue: you leave one doors, which the pathogens are able to open anyway, and let them go through, there will be plenty of others closed for them to deal with. on the other hand, if you close any doors to your plants, there will be consequences: plants are not that able to open it themselves, and eventually there will be some other doors which will be automatically closed to them as a consequence. in other words, there's lesser gain in closing single doors to the pathogens, comparing to a significantly larger harm that comes from closing it to the plants.


ok, a huge one again, general and probably not that interesting, but to get back to the practise there.
i'll return to those flavinides and their role soon, but related to this post, i'd like to post a question, which should help with better understanding of the issues, and also explain some very important stuff related to the procedure:
well, it's quite a high amount of fungicide stuff being used there ( although there is always a general tendency to somehow see it even larger than it really is when we keep mentioning it for so many times ). could you tell me why we should believe that the copper, for example, will not end up massively storagged in the fruits one day, and totally poison you once you get to eat them?

to be continued, this novel of ours... if you still get the strenght to endure it of course

[Paradajz]

Originally Posted by Heritage

Ivan, thanks for the detailed explanation and recipe. I'll copy your formula and give it a try this winter/spring when I am starting my new plants. If I get a chance I'll do a controlled experiment and compare it to my usual fertilizer (soluble 20-20-20 with micros)

i'd like to point out that i hope we are not disturbing N.'s thread with talks about ferts. as it could be seen from my previous terror- post, it's actually everything directly connected to his V./F. management.
hope you won't shoot me, N.?

as for the fert you use, Steve, it's absolutely ok, you are playing ''safe'' there.

we call such ferts ( NPK 20-20-20, 19-19-19, 21-21-22, etc. etc. etc. ) ''universals'', which basically means those are suitable for just about everything.

also, having a formula of micros in is what i refer to when i use the term ''a complex fert''. further more, using complex ones is always and always a reccomended thing: using simple NPK ones is just to ''poor'', while on the other hand using particular micros ferts on their own is the biggest ''no-no'' of all, since those complex formulas are always a result of analysis and experience and one cannot make any terrible mistakes with it, while a potential miss- use of an single- micro fert is really but really bad thing.

on the other hand, we also have another name for the universals here: ''fruitage ferts''.
this basically means that fert formulas with relatively equal NPK amounts are mostly ideal in fruit growing, while it's to a certain point ''under- optimal'' in vegetables gardening.
this comes from a fact that fruits generally have a comparatively long season- cycle, while vegetables have a gennerally shorter one.
consequently, when you consider the fact that each plant ( any sort of a plant ) has a highly specific need for particular nutrients at particular phases of season- growth ( P at starters, N in active vegetation, K in fruit developing and ripening, etc. etc. etc. ), you come to the conclusion that using an universal with fruitage is optimal, because the long cycle will make it all work as it should- there is plenty of time for all of those nutrients to be optimally used by a plant.
on the other hand, vegetables are generally ''faster'' and far more specific regarding particular nutrients needs, and consequently an universal may be under- optimal there.

as an example:
a tomato plant, needs P at transplant phase, it's cruccial for it's root system development. further more, the root development phase won't be lasting long, 2- 3 weeks tops, new growth will be there soon and the plant will start transferring to an active vegetation phase, hugely increasing it's need for N.
further more, where P and N present equally, you cannot restrict the plant to use solely P when it needs it, it will be using N to the maximum level, it's the nature of both the plant and N ( much more complex issue than this, but it's basically like that in the nutschell of it ).
as a consequence, the plant will start growing to fast and most probably leave the root system inadequately developed.

basically, this means that an universal shouldn't be applied in the early after transplant phase because of the high N presence, but only after the plant transferred to the active growth phase.
but again, applying it then will leave some of that P in the universal unexploied ( under- optimal effect ), and also there will be a question why the plant was left without ''assistance'' with P when it needed it, and finally, if over- used, an universal can cause quite some troubles resulting from P amounts in the phases when the plant doesn't need it so much.

but again, that's just an example why it could be considered ''under optimal'' in vegetables growing, i'm absolutely not saying it's bad, on the contrary.
as a matter of facts, it is always recommendable to the new growers to use universals, because it's a safe play and they can't go any serious wrong with it.

on the other hand, you i don't see like a new grower, and i somehow believe you could try a more complex, but also more efficient approach.
if you want i can recommend a general fert- scheme ( to be adjusted to your particular soil and other factoring conditions ) so you could try to test it.

and btw, your universal cannot be fully replaced by nettle ( N, Fe, Mg, and K to some extent ), but if you add some other ''sweeties'' to the programme, it will absolutely do.

[Paradajz]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

No, I have not yet sprayed for the pests. I'm planning on something for that along with the next kelp/fert foliar.

Neem seems to work well on things like aphids, but it would eliminate sulfur spray for a month. It does nothing for mites (in my experience).
-naysen

ok, this is a highly specific one in particular.

try to reconsider the following ''logic'' of it:

- sprays, both fungicides and pesticides, can be ''programmed'' in two basic manners: a calendar and a forecast one. with the calendar approach you simply programme sprays at a certain calendar schedule, which you design as you find it suitable, while at the same time you need to calculate the weather conditions in. with the forecast one you follow the weather and adjust your sprays to it.
- my definite recommendation is the calendar one, forecast model is an extremely complex thing to implement.

further more:
- there is a general difference between fungus and pests, highly different patterns of ''work'' there.
- fungus will come under certain conditions and do what it does, more or less it's steady and predictable.
- pests are far less predictable. it will also come under certain conditions, but not that easily predictable, and it will have a far less predictable pattern of work, mainly because there is a significantly larger number of factors of pest's ''work'', ranging from weather conditions and environment, all the way up to presence of any predatory species at the spot ( btw, did you know that one of the most common predators of mites is... thrips; there is actually a rule: a thrips infestation will get far worse at the places where mites are significantly present ).

and finally:
- it's easier with fungicides: warm weather+moisture+high disease pressure environment+plants at transplant shock... means: spray them immediatelly.
- it's different with pests, mites especially. those little monsters have quite a number of different growth phases, and our ability to influence them is not always that high in all phases of the pest's growth. further more, they are so terribly able with resistance, and proven to transfer to a horribly more aggressive system of multiplification when pesticides not utilised in an appropriate manner. consequently, you want to get those with the most adequate pesticide, at the most adequate moment.
- also, include the specificum of a tomato plant growth: at transplant, it will have practically only the ''old'' leafs present, the ones which it will actually abandon in the later growth phases ( or you'll do it instead ). consequently, the thing to be worried about there the most is new growth, when it comes. actually, it's the oldest rule in the book: with pests, always worry about the new growth, it's the spot they like the most, and it's also the spot they can produce the most significant damage.

so, when you reconsider all of this, it comes to a couple of simple rules i always recommend:
- if you prefer ( or estimate ) the use of pesticides neccessary as an regular- preventive course of action for toms ( for any reasons there might be ), start using it not in a ''totally preventive'' manner, but only after the plants get new growth developed to a sufficient stage to be objectively endangered by a pest. this especially goes for mites, considering their specific life forms and abilities and resistance.
- as an exception to the rule named above, use the most appropriate pesticide if you confirm a pest infestation when ever you confirm it. with mites it's again a bit specific: there are ''early'' forms and ''later ( moving )'' forms of those, and pesticides significantly varry in the way it can influence those. consequently, there are so called ''spring'' and ''summer'' miticides: the spring ones reffer to those with highest effects on early mites forms ( mostly labeled as ''ovicidal'', generally meaning it will kill pest eggs, which is adjusted to the particular time period and pest status expected in the spring ), with most often a very long time range of action, while the summer ones will be more agressive ( so it could cover for larger pest numbers expected at that particular, summer period ), with a shorter time range of action, but with significantly enlarged efficiency to eradicate pest adult forms ( moving ones in particular ).

so, it's still my particular recommendation to use what you have there, along with II in the mixture, mostly because i believe that there are some early forms present at your plants there already, and the timing will be just perfect- the buggers will be somewhere at their most sensitive form by then.
again, if there aren't any present at those plants at the moment, the proximity of infested plants and weather conditions are objectivelly suggesting that a spray at that particular moment will be effective as a preventive for the new growth you'll be expecting there by then.

and again, it's my general recommendation, not solely related to mites only, for pesticides not to be included in tomato overal protection untill the new growth presence after transplant, with the exceptions for cases when pest presence/infestation at plants confirmed, or when the prior infestation experience and environment conditions suggest objectivelly high risks of a possible infestation.

oh, oh, oh...
sorry all, i generally have troubles being short with such issues in my own language, not to mention English.
i promise i'll take some rest now

[Paradajz]

sorry sorry sorry, just a p.s.

forgot to mention that all miticides are actually contact- acting ones, which means that the new growth that appears after the treatment cannot be adequatelly protected, which also needs to be included when designing a treatment procedure

[z_willus_d]

Originally Posted by Paradajz

i'd like to post a question, which should help with better understanding of the issues, and also explain some very important stuff related to the procedure:
well, it's quite a high amount of fungicide stuff being used there ( although there is always a general tendency to somehow see it even larger than it really is when we keep mentioning it for so many times ). could you tell me why we should believe that the copper, for example, will not end up massively storagged in the fruits one day, and totally poison you once you get to eat them?

to be continued, this novel of ours... if you still get the strenght to endure it of course

Hi Ivan, I quite enjoyed the lecture that came along with the above post. Nice metaphors in play there with the doors and trapping pathogens in endless halls, etc. Thoughts of the mirror maze in Something wicked this way comes came to mind briefly. I appreciate the distinction between the brute force method n1 seemingly the standard for big-Ag as we conceive it vs. your more thoughtful approach in n3. I think n3 does rely on good data, knowledge, and information about each particular site. It's probably a risk for someone such as I to try and adequately tackle it with my limited knowledge/info/data, but that's where I glad to have folks like you and Steve helping out. And I slowly learn as I drudge through this. As you noted, there's risk to n2 as well, and not all natural things are good or healthy -- the common reference there is to snake venom.

As to your question, I know Cu to be a heavy metal that tends to bind to organic material (such as the stuff in soil). I know that most of it will stay in the soil in that manner. Actually, that is a concern of mine. I wonder if I need to perform the mancozeb+Cu(OH)2 in coming years, will I not start to build up a large residue of Cu in my soil over time. If I were to anticipate your answer, I'd guess you'll say that hopefully I'll have transitioned to n2 before that becomes an issue. Anyway, back to your question. I think we're hoping for a lot of that Cu to bind with Sulfur to make CuSO4, which is that counter-active for the fungi we're fighting. I know that Cu can get into the plant in lesser doses by way of various molecule combinations that allow it to become mobile. I'm not so sure how much of that makes it into the fruit. I've never heard of copper poisoning through fruit consumed by a plant, though I know it's possible if you receive to much of it in contaminated water or the like.

Please illuminate?
-naysen

[z_willus_d]

Originally Posted by Paradajz

i'd like to point out that i hope we are not disturbing N.'s thread with talks about ferts. as it could be seen from my previous terror- post, it's actually everything directly connected to his V./F. management.
hope you won't shoot me, N.?

You must be kidding Ivan. If you've ever had a weekend to read through the annals of this thread, you'd see that it's twisted from topic to topic (all in the guise of addressing my garden issues, now squarely identified to be V./F.) I think that thread drift hazard a line I've long since crossed, probably a year or two back.

Please continue... I assume the moderators don't mind this forum being used in the fashion we've used it here. I hope some good comes of this both for myself (pretty sure of that already) and others. I think you'd done a good job explaining that folks shouldn't just read a single post with various procedures of this application or that and assume it's a rule or something they should start doing blindly. You've made that abundantly clear.
-naysen

[z_willus_d]

This morning I remembered not to delete any of the photos of the vines. They're looking ok, but the new growth is getting distorted on most and in some new leaves have dried up and gone dark. That could be physical damage or pests/mites. I did see several mite like creatures under my magnifier earlier today. They were oval and brown. I also was able to capture a small red colored bug that looks like a spider. Hard to see in the pics, I know. Found an egg too.
-naysen

[Heritage]

Naysen, I can't tell from the photos so I'm going to suggest you spray a miticide as Ivan suggested. I prefer to not discuss pesticides (make recommendations) on a public forum, so will contact you via PM.
Ivan, I sent you an email.

Steve

[Paradajz]

hi, guys,

just shortly: what's with the temps there, N., today and for the next couple of days if possible?

[z_willus_d]

Hi,

Steve, I'll respond to your PM shortly. Thx!

Ivan, you can see the temps (trending cooler with chance of rain) for the next week here:
http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/...:95661.1.99999

That 50% chance of rain lands smack dab on when the II treatment was planned. I think I'll wait for it to pass before any more spraying.
-naysen

[MrsJustice]

Next year If I was you: I would grow a row of Hinkel Hatz Peppers to see if they can help keep these bugs away organically. I use many Hot Peppers around different plants but this year that started off cold/than too hot /than much rain fall/than less rainfall"", it was only the hatza peppers that solve all my problems for me. I just "Thank God" I have planted many in my flower bebs to transplant to problem areas where other peepers had not affect in control pest. These Hatz peppers saved my Tomato & Squash crop, which lead to me selling out for the first time. So I when on vacation in the middle of my farming season. But I see that I make have enough to re-open soon. As a certified seeds saver, I decide to sell the seeds of my Hinkel Hatz Peppers for the first time because it must be one of the Hierloom Peppers that Native Americans planted together with their corn and other vegetables to control pest Organically.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hinkel-Hatz-...item1e7f9eccde

[z_willus_d]

MJ, thanks for the tips. I was just researching your peppers, and enjoyed reading up on their interesting history. It sounds like the peppers are used in making hot sauces (like Tabasco), and that's something I've wanted to try doing for sometime. So I'll probably give these peppers a try (or they're in the running at least) as a candidate for that purpose.

As for using them to shield/protect against pests, I don't really have the space to devote "rows" to a bed. I can really only fit one true row per bed with enough space for a bit more plants in front on one. I tend to grow low rising plants like zucchini in that space. I grow my peppers in containers, and so far that's worked out well for me with respect to the peppers. Well, the bells are always tricky, but I take it as a challenge to see if I can manage to grow large, healthy bells in my Earth/Inn-tainers. I found a bell that did better than the typical Sweet CA Wonders (Quadrato D'Asti Giallo), and I think if I can just give the lot of them some shading during our hot, hot summers, I'd have a winning setup.

I've tried inter-planting in the beds before with a "beneficial" plant like the peppers you mentioned between each pair of tomato vines. I've never managed to get that to work well for me. The vines always dwarf their neighbors and the beneficials wither away or go into stasis. I might give something like that another try with wider plant to plant spacing. I'd like to cut back on the number of tomato plants this next year, so there could be my opportunity.

Thanks,
Naysen