Is this little thing really what's destroyed my gardens?

[Paradajz]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

This morning I remembered not to delete any of the photos of the vines. They're looking ok, but the new growth is getting distorted on most and in some new leaves have dried up and gone dark. That could be physical damage or pests/mites. I did see several mite like creatures under my magnifier earlier today. They were oval and brown. I also was able to capture a small red colored bug that looks like a spider. Hard to see in the pics, I know. Found an egg too.
-naysen

hi,

could you pls make a close up of the leaf i marked here if possible?
also, could you check the back sides of the new growth from IMAG0918, those leafs that changed color to purple/brown ( if i could distinct it at all )? you are interested if the situation is identical with backsides as with fronts there, or it's different back, what ever the difference might be.

say hello to your mites for me when you get a chance to do it

[Paradajz]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

Hi,

Steve, I'll respond to your PM shortly. Thx!

Ivan, you can see the temps (trending cooler with chance of rain) for the next week here:
http://www.wunderground.com/cgi-bin/...:95661.1.99999

That 50% chance of rain lands smack dab on when the II treatment was planned. I think I'll wait for it to pass before any more spraying.
-naysen

well, N., it's something of a to-be-or-not-to-be kind of situation there.

the leaf i asked about suggests V. runing there.
mites on the run too.
weather is the key, actually, will slow down those little spiders a bit, but it will also change their behaviour and make them harder to get, but the cruccial thing it will do... it will launch your V. to cosmic hights there.

ok, that's about it- next 14 days is where you'll see the effects or no effects there. actually, if those plants were stronger and it was Spring with temps warming up, the pathogen would do it's job now ( or by now ) and you'd most probably notice it only in some 4-6 weeks. with such plants and temps cooling down it's expected much sooner.

pls, if you only ''feel'' 2 dry hours there, do the II as planned.

[MrsJustice]

Yes shading in hot weather is very important. One summer it was so hot here I had to take sheets, even bed covers to protect my plants from the sun. I did not have the proper shade cover at that times but was able to save my crops. This Hatz Peppers Plant are very short plants. But this year I use them outside of my squash plants than I had to control the vines to grow in the direction away for the peppers. I was surprised I were able too control the direction of the squash growth patterns.

My heart were very heavy for all the farmers who crops suffered from all the rain in their area and zones across the United States. I hope every thing goes good for you too. It look good so far. We are Blessed that we have crops that is savable, even if we have to work hard for the harvest. You are doing go; I hope all goes well for you.

[z_willus_d]

Here are the six pics from this morning. I also included a look at the two old plants that stand sentry over the outer seedlings. I'm going to try and hack those guys down this weekend.

Ivan, I'll try and catch a close-up of that leaf you asked about, front and back.

I'll get that nII spray in sometime this weekend depending on the weather. I'm currently thinking it will be Sun evening, but it could work out for Sat evening if the weather permits.

MJ, thanks for the encouragement. I'm just experimenting with these plants here now, so it's not like the folks you mentioned who have their main crops on the line.

Have a nice weekend all.
-naysen

[MrsJustice]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

Here are the six pics from this morning. I also included a look at the two old plants that stand sentry over the outer seedlings. I'm going to try and hack those guys down this weekend.

Ivan, I'll try and catch a close-up of that leaf you asked about, front and back.

I'll get that nII spray in sometime this weekend depending on the weather. I'm currently thinking it will be Sun evening, but it could work out for Sat evening if the weather permits.

MJ, thanks for the encouragement. I'm just experimenting with these plants here now, so it's not like the folks you mentioned who have their main crops on the line.

Have a nice weekend all.
-naysen

I remember when I first experimented with natural peat control on many plants before becoming a farmer. . one time I used soapy water on my plants as a natural way of organic pest control. It worked but all the leafs died on the all the plants they looked like "Charlie Brown Christmas Trees" but with-in weeks every leaf grew back and my tomato mite problem was solved. I learn that day "that all soap was not created equally": I had to find natural soaps my plants adaptable with out being to strong too control my unwanted pest, with out killing the good ones.

After you have tried everything. I will send you a private massage on something that might work for you organically. There will be no other way to use this natural method with a chemicals already in use. This method I send you can only be used on a Tomato Plant :Solanum lycopersicum" because it will kill other plants. It took me years to understand Organic Farming and I must protect the Native American Secrets, because I want to writ a book about it one day.

[z_willus_d]

MJ, I've had years of experience trying various soaps with mixed success depending on the pest I was trying to control. Against, aphids soaps work quite well for me. I didn't find it to do nearly as well against thrips and mites. I did do my share of leaf damage. First, I've learned never to spray soap when it will be sunny within the next 12-hours. So only in the evenings and ideally not before what will be a hot succeeding day. Soap mixed with some oils can be bad news too. I think a neem/soap combination did some damage last season. I think the concentrations on some soap manufactures (like safer brand) are just way too high. Even at half concentration, it's enough to clog up the pipe works on a decent sprayer and leave this mucky film everywhere.

I like to reserve the soaps for things like broccoli where I don't have much issues with thrips or mites, etc., but aphids are a constant annoyance (especially towards harvest). I like to use the soap to keep their populations down. The thing is, I can kill aphids on my harvest ready broccoli, but then I'm stuck with a head of broccoli with a bunch of dead bugs. They're actually easier to get rid of when soaking the heads when they're alive. Better yet, let's just keep them off the plant altogether (at least for the most part). That means regular spraying and with something safe and organic.

--naysen

[z_willus_d]

Here are the pics from this morning. It rained in the early hours, and it's cooler today. I went out and cut off all the obvious dead leaves and branches before snapping these shots. Ivan, I think that leaf you were interested was included in that which I hacked off.

I took the six regular pics, left-to-right, and then four additional pics per plant to show close-ups of the worst looking leaves.

I couldn't find any mites or bugs on the detritus I removed to my house for inspection. It might be due to the dampness and cold.

Ivan, I hope all these closeups help with what you needed. I'm not happy with the look on a few of them, particularly those that look bad which came from new growth.

-naysen

Note, Image IMAG0946 should be inserted in the location of IMAG0846

[MrsJustice]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

MJ, I've had years of experience trying various soaps with mixed success depending on the pest I was trying to control. Against, aphids soaps work quite well for me. I didn't find it to do nearly as well against thrips and mites. I did do my share of leaf damage. First, I've learned never to spray soap when it will be sunny within the next 12-hours. So only in the evenings and ideally not before what will be a hot succeeding day. Soap mixed with some oils can be bad news too. I think a neem/soap combination did some damage last season. I think the concentrations on some soap manufactures (like safer brand) are just way too high. Even at half concentration, it's enough to clog up the pipe works on a decent sprayer and leave this mucky film everywhere.

I like to reserve the soaps for things like broccoli where I don't have much issues with thrips or mites, etc., but aphids are a constant annoyance (especially towards harvest). I like to use the soap to keep their populations down. The thing is, I can kill aphids on my harvest ready broccoli, but then I'm stuck with a head of broccoli with a bunch of dead bugs. They're actually easier to get rid of when soaking the heads when they're alive. Better yet, let's just keep them off the plant altogether (at least for the most part). That means regular spraying and with something safe and organic.

--naysen

I feel the same way about most manufacture soaps, they are so concentrated you have to cut down the mixture, with their cost being over priced. I see you are will abreast with organic pest control and what to use on different plants. I really know now: you have a major problem on your hands to solve before next season. Your pictures look very good and so close-up where the experts here can help you better.

[Paradajz]

hi, N., excellent photos there.

before we check them, pleaseeeeee: raining in the morning- cutting of the branches... NO-NO.

it's actually quite a strict rule: never make any open wounds at your plants ( any plants, not only toms ), before or after the rain, or even if only humidity is high with no rains at all. as a matter of facts, any touching, brushing, etc. should be avided at such conditions.
there is no larger probable ''trouble entrance'' than this issue. there is far less harm in leaving ( how ever infected ) leafs on the plants, than cutting it off at inappropriate conditions. whatever was the disease one wanted to avoid by doing it, there are far higher chances he'll do just the oposite- open the doors to the disease, which can and will use it with a high probability.

hope you disinfected the tools ( and hands ) in between the cuts on separate plants?

[Paradajz]

as for the photos, a couple of bad news and a single good one there, which should we name first...

ok,
* 0940, 0943, 0944, 0945, 0948, 0950, 0951, 0953, 0952 are your missing mites, unfortunatelly. those are just some typical scenes out of wide repertoir those monsters have.
* most of the others ( all of them actually ) also strongly suggest mite presence, but with a possibility of some disease presence too. at terminal necrotic leaf phase to hard to tell, could be some mold, LT, V, F signs, we'll see how it develops further.
* 0946 was the 'purple' one i asked for, because it scared me on the previous set of photos- there could have been a probability of Late Blight as it appeared on those. now i cannot tell for sure, but estimate the possibility of LB low ( was there any 'whitish' fungal apearance there, can't tell from the photos? ), mainly because there are no stems damage which should be obvious by now. quite high probability that mites did that too, but be vigilant with new growth and stems of that plant pls.

so, the bad ones are that you got quite an infestation there, and that 2 of your control plants are almost 'out', to early for us to say if it was the pathogens or the mites that got them.
on the other hand, the good news is that none of your experimental plants shows any signs of V/F infection runing there, except for those low necrosis on plant 4 ( CP-cross ), for which, if i understod you correctly, we know that it was having those branches in trouble at the time of transplant.
and finally, we can fairly asume that all the plants were equally exposed to mites, which would makes us expect an equal infestation on all of them, not only the control ones.
what do you think, would you estimate that the control ones were much 'weaker' on the transplant and that it could have caused such a difference in present control/experimental plants status?

[z_willus_d]

Yikes!!! Well, you know what - I had just awoken and was groggy. I actually considered everything you stated above after the 2nd plant, at which point I started wiping down and using different parts of the kitchen sheers for each cut. I thought, man I bet these open wounds would make great entry points for V./F., but then I also thought maybe they can't come in through the branches (only roots). Honestly, I don't know the answer to that. But we have other diseases to consider too. I get a bit obsessive compulsive, and even though I had considered what you state above, not knowing it to be a rule, I went ahead and finished the job and cut out all the dead appendages. Well, now I know better.
-n

[Paradajz]

and a p.s.
plant 1 does point to V at some level, plants 5 and 6 to F, but this is just an 'overal impression', nothing even fairly conclusive there yet.

[z_willus_d]

Originally Posted by Paradajz

as for the photos, a couple of bad news and a single good one there, which should we name first...

ok,
* 0940, 0943, 0944, 0945, 0948, 0950, 0951, 0953, 0952 are your missing mites, unfortunatelly. those are just some typical scenes out of wide repertoir those monsters have.
* most of the others ( all of them actually ) also strongly suggest mite presence, but with a possibility of some disease presence too. at terminal necrotic leaf phase to hard to tell, could be some mold, LT, V, F signs, we'll see how it develops further.
* 0946 was the 'purple' one i asked for, because it scared me on the previous set of photos- there could have been a probability of Late Blight as it appeared on those. now i cannot tell for sure, but estimate the possibility of LB low ( was there any 'whitish' fungal apearance there, can't tell from the photos? ), mainly because there are no stems damage which should be obvious by now. quite high probability that mites did that too, but be vigilant with new growth and stems of that plant pls.

so, the bad ones are that you got quite an infestation there, and that 2 of your control plants are almost 'out', to early for us to say if it was the pathogens or the mites that got them.
on the other hand, the good news is that none of your experimental plants shows any signs of V/F infection runing there, except for those low necrosis on plant 4 ( CP-cross ), for which, if i understod you correctly, we know that it was having those branches in trouble at the time of transplant.
and finally, we can fairly asume that all the plants were equally exposed to mites, which would makes us expect an equal infestation on all of them, not only the control ones.
what do you think, would you estimate that the control ones were much 'weaker' on the transplant and that it could have caused such a difference in present control/experimental plants status?

On the 3rd from left (experimental) 0946, I didn't see any white fungal appearances. I think that's my Caspian Pink vine, which is actually the best looking of the bunch at present.

It's raining pretty good right now. I went outside an hour ago and a flock of birds had taken up residence right on top of this area of my garden. I have no idea why they couldn't have picked any of the other ten's of thousands of square feet to do their nasty business. They all flew away in a furry when I approached. I saw they had dug up around several of the tomato vines (the new ones). Some roots were exposed on one. They damaged the leaves on about three of them. Nasty, nasty birds. I think they were digging for worms or something. They were back at it a few minutes ago. I hope they don't destroy all of our hard work.

To the question about the experimental vs. control... in all honesty, I'd have to say the left-most control (MP) was a 4 going into the ground, the Exp-MP 2of6 was a 5.5, 3of6 (exp-CP) a 6, 4of6 (exp-cross) a 5, 5of6 (ctrl-cross a 4, and 6of6 (ctrl-JBT) a 6. That's just my sense of it. I think I prioritized quality in the experimental group.

If this rain let's up, I'll see to the II foliar+miticide this evening. If not, hopefully tomorrow evening.

Thanks for the notes Ivan.
-naysen

[Paradajz]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

Yikes!!! Well, you know what - I had just awoken and was groggy. I actually considered everything you stated above after the 2nd plant, at which point I started wiping down and using different parts of the kitchen sheers for each cut. I thought, man I bet these open wounds would make great entry points for V./F., but then I also thought maybe they can't come in through the branches (only roots). Honestly, I don't know the answer to that. But we have other diseases to consider too. I get a bit obsessive compulsive, and even though I had considered what you state above, not knowing it to be a rule, I went ahead and finished the job and cut out all the dead appendages. Well, now I know better.
-n

don't worry, i pointed it for exactly the reason you name- it's not that important for the experiment, but it is and it will be for your future seasons

yes, it can make the entrance trough high- stem or branches wounds, although plenty of falks will tell it differently.
again ( although it might appeared that i'm obssesed with V, while there is another horror present there to ), due to some specifics of it's reproduction, V will make it easier. there is evidence that it can travel through the air in dirt- particles ( dust- size ).
and of course, if the blade was infected with some of the buggers, it's only normal that an infection is highly possible. it's only that the thing ( both of them ) lives in soil mostly, so the mechanical ability to spread it any way other than roots is considered insignificant, but it shouldn't be, especially when it is proven that V.dahliae can ( and mostly will ) normally reproduce at leaf surface.

btw, your mites are in it's most active phase ( pest form ) now, the stuff you got there will do excellently, new eggs in a couple of days.

also, i got to leave shortly, but will be back in an hour or so and i'll see to post some stuff about the MP-experimental one, so we could do some diagnostics there together

[Paradajz]

...ok, was this a long hour or not

it was the plant 2 ( MP experimental ) that intrigued me the most so far. as said earlier, it was visible that the plant suffered while in the pot, lost quite some growth capability due to absence of sufficient potassium ( that's where the ''bushy'' appearance comes from ), but on the other hand, the plant started well, good colors there, foliage, vigor, etc..
in other words, the plant has proven valuable to your experiment. that's exactly why the yellowing on some branches there intrigued me, because it was a possible disease announcement call, F for that part especially. further more, all the photos from your earlier sets were tken at such an angle that it was almost impossible to tell anything, mostly due to the sun light which was always additionally changing the look of those leafs.
than, with the set of photos you posted 2 days ago, it got to be clear that the plant has a problem- although taken from a different angle it showed leafs with quite some chlorosis ( yellowing, and very intense ) and nervature intensively visible there. that was sufficient to worry me.
than, when you posted the last photo set, the angle was completely different an the question was solved. but how?
so, this would be the course of action when you want to find the answers to such questions- intense yellowing, nervature still green, etc.

1. you need to check if it's a disease ( especially in the course of such an experiment ).

questions you always make first:
* is there any necrosis on the leafs? as i can see from the photo, no.
* is there any fungal spots ( speckles, spots, grayish areas, brownish areas, olive- greenish areas, fungal looking growth masses )? again a no, if i see well.
these two answers exclude foliar diseases as a cause, and leave you with a possibility of a systemic one ( such as V/F ). following questions there:
* are those leafs and branches wilty, with soft tissue appearance ( very different from a normal tissue firmness )? again a no, if i'm correct.
* does the plant exibit overal wilty appearance, new growth especially, afternoon time would be the period when it's expected? no, i'd say again.
so, these would be a visual and analytical confirmation that you can fairly safely exclude diseases there.
the next, basic thing such sympthoms suggest, is

2. is it a nutrient thing?
visually, it's the closest guess. nitro, iron, magnesium and even zinc deficiency can cause such sympthoms, almost identical actually. e.g., if you do a visual comparation of those leafs with some photo of tomato leafs exibiting iron deficiency, you'd come to see it can be practically identical. visually, of course.
so, this is what you do there:

N deficiency related:
* is the yellowing pale, distributed to the older leafs first? yes, to some extent? it could be, go further:
* is it distributed equally on the lower branches, is the leafs' nervature also affected ( just slightly more green than the leaf tissue ), is the plant growing thiner stems and branches, smaller leafs, does it grow slow? no to all of those.
exclude N deficiency, with it the plant cannot grow normally and show symptoms just on a couple of lower branches: plants can move and remove N with such efficiency ( it's extremely mobile within a plant ) that it would have to be equally dispersed sympthoms there, not just on a branch or two.

Fe deficiency related:
it's the closest visual guess when you simply take an 'isolated' look at those leafs ( yellowing between the leaf nervature, while the nervature remains intesively green ), but:
* does the plant show sympthoms on new growth leafs? no, the older ones first.
exclude the iron, it's always coming on the 'newest' leafs first, and starting from the leaf lower half, because iron is highly immobile within a plant ( the plant cannot move or remove it from one place to another; if it could, the symptoms would appear on older leafs first, because plants, just like humans or animals, always tend to protect it's younger ones first ).

Mg deficiency related:
magnesium is quite mobile within a plant, and in case of a deficiency, the plant will start removing it from the oldest leafs to feed the new growth. also, magnesium constitutes one of the basic elements in chlorophyle, so the deficiency will be visualised as the lack of it- yellow areas in between the leaf nervature, while the nervature will keep fairly intensive green color. it doesn't ( and mostly isn't ) always appear as an equal pattern on all the lower branches simultaneosly.
so, this one really fits the sympsthoms, therefore:
* do the sympthoms ( yellowing ) start on the outer ( tops, side margins ) or inner ( central vein ) leaf area? in this case, sympthoms mostly spread from the central vein to the margins.
exclude magnesium deficiency, it always starts being visual from the leaf margins/tops, because the plant will start removing magnesium from the 'ending' parts first, and that's a law.

on the other hand, 'sucking' creatures, such as insects, will always have the most tastefull meals right in the firm, thick, juicy and yummie area around the central vein.
so, those are pests.
intense yellowing, some intense enough to create almost white, wider circular areas, nervature intense, leaf surface with that specific kind of 'wrinkled' appearance in between the nerves, some yellow/whitish/brownish/redish spots...
oh, those are mites, quite plenty of them.

it's actually not such a problem to distinct most of those issues we were talking around here, just go step by step and use what you know, and never ever relate solely on photos ( visuals ) to make any conclusions without a doubt

talk soon, br.