whats this nonsense about a hybrid heirloom?

[clkeiper]

Originally Posted by casino

Nonnas prize and her description from the gurneys catalog.

Zones: 3-9 annual
Height: approx 6 - 8 ft (needs staking)
Spacing: 18-24 inches between plants, 3 -5 feet between rows
Depth: 1/4 inch
Spread: Indeterminate
Sun/Shade: Full sun
Germination: 8-10 days
Days To Maturity: 80 days from transplant
Yield: 100 lbs/100 foot row
Fruit: Orangey-red with a green shoulder ripening to full rich red

YIELD: this caught my eye, WOW this hybrid vigor producing 100 pounds of fruit per a 100 foot row. Thats like saying 1000 pounds per acre. LOL

Joe

Wow! The yield sounds really is poor to me. That is only a little more than two bushels of tomatoes for the season. hardly enough at a given time to process them IF 100#'s/100' is accurate and you are planning on making juice or whatever they would be good for. I don't know anyone who grows 100 plants besides me and I would be crying if that is all I was picking. Kind of hard to supply for a farmers markets with this yield.

I have a friend (I started her tomatoes) who grew 84 (big boy ) plants and and picked 16 bu. just for processing alone. She said she gave away tomatoes to the neighbor and used for the table so she didn't count those.
So if this spacing of 18-24" (really?) is correct you can get more than 50 plants in a row.....this is very questionable in the worth of the space they take up in regards to the yield of the plants, IMO.

[Wi-sunflower]

Yah that yield statement looks like it is made to sound good to newbies. But those of us that have grown tomatoes know it's really cruddy.

I had a commercial variety that regularly put out at least 1/2 bu (25 lbs) / plant even under lousy conditions. I've seen some of the Heirlooms I grew, even this year, put out 20 or more lbs on each plant. And this was a horrible year.

So over all, that Gurneys ad is for the inexperienced tomato grower.

JMO,
Carol

[TomNJ]

Since the word "heirloom" is not formally or officially defined with respect to tomatoes, why don't we define it? After all, we are TOMATOVILLE, a broad community of tomato experts and aficionados - who better to take charge and lead the way. Authority is not granted, it is taken.

The word heirloom traditionally implies passed down within a family. With that, I'll start with the following proposed definition, and then we can all wordsmith it as necessary. The key is to keep the definition simple and concise, and it should also apply to new heirlooms found now and in the future.

Heirloom Tomato: An open pollinated variety of tomato which has continuously grown true to type for at least 50 years and has been passed down within a family for at least two generations.

Your thoughts?

TomNJ

[Fusion_power]

methinks TomNJ is an Heirloom. After all, he has continuously grown true to type for at least 50 years but I am not sure if he was definitely passed down within a family for at least 2 generations.


I kind of like leaving the word "heirloom" with a bit of wriggle room. There are too many circumstances that fall outside your suggested definition. For example, would this definition cover tomato which is an inbreeder as well as corn which is an outbreeder? What about Green Zebra? Is it an heirloom?

DarJones

[jennifer28]

Well... for me it isn't about defining what an heirloom is, but it IS about being honest. For example, with the green zebra tomato I have seen it referred to as an heirloom but I am not as concerned with that as much as that from what I have read about it and then when I have grown it, the fact that the information that I read has been accurate based on my experience growing it. So in my experience with the way the green zebra has been marketed, especially by Tom Wagner himself, the information provided about the tomato has been accurate. So I'm OK with that.

This may be because I am a teacher. Children lie to me all the time. "I didn't kick that kid under the table!" OR "Not me" and "I didn't do it." I am sure many moms and dads on this site have experienced the same thing from their children, LOL. Even though I understand the motivation behind the lying, I explain that it is more important to tell the truth and know you did the right thing, even though no one was watching.

To me, it is really more the intent of why someone is not being completely honest. If it is to sucker people into buying a product that is not what it claims to be, then I don't agree with it because it seems deliberately misleading to me. Nonna's Prize looks like an attempt to link the word "heirloom" and all its connotations to a hybrid just to sucker more people into buying the product. It makes me annoyed and the company loses credibility in my opinion.

In my opinion, it would be more honest and accurate to say that it is a hybrid with heirloom qualities, and then explain why that is, rather than to dub it a "hybrid heirloom."

Also I am trying to locate that study about the white grafted tomato, and I have not found it yet but I am really interested in that so thank you for bringing it up!

[casino]

What would you call a sport of an heirloom tomato.
My Italian neighbor only grows his family Heirloom paste tomato with no official name so we call it Casino from Pat Cici's home town and a few years ago Casino produced a sport and we call it casino chips. (Chip off the old block) Its a cherry tomato, its new, its not a hybrid (very stable) and its not what we think of as a 100 year old heirloom. So what do we call it. Heirloom sport???

Joe

[jennifer28]

Well Casino, I dont know but someone gave me some casino chip seeds to try this year in the children's gardens, and we are VERY EXCITED to try it!

[Mashman]

Sorry but I have to ask....... Is a Suzy Q considered a hybrid Twinkie? May have to write Hostess while there is still time!

[tomakers]

Wait a minute!!! So a Twinkie is an heirloom??

[frdlturner]

hmmm after today Twinkie may become a antique..
stock up and sell on ebay LOL
hmmm somewhere I have a recipe for them

[salix]

TomNJ, a very good starting definition. I'd be happy to end it right after ...true to type for at least 50 years. Murky histories and invented ones are common, why not just leave it at the 50 year mark? Does it really matter if the original seed was smuggled out of some country in the hem of a desperate refugee's coat or whether it originated locally and due to some desired characteristic was maintained for decades by a seed house? Don't get me wrong, I love the histories, but not sure it is essential for your definition. The first part is perhaps more cold and clinical, but serves the purpose. Now, someone else jump in and explain why I should change my mind!

[Fusion_power]

Jennifer, My memory says that study re the white tomato was done in Russia and is one of the triggers that initiated the field of epigenetics. It was one of those moments where people said "this can't possibly happen" yet the evidence was irrefutable and repeatable.

DarJones

[TomNJ]

Hi Salix,

The reason I added the requirement that the seeds pass down through at least two generations in a family is that the word "heirloom" refers to something that has decended to an heir. It is distinctly different than just being old or open pollinated. My definition doesn't address where the variety came from or whether it was intentionally created of modified long in the past, only that it be a family heirloom and has been stable for many years.

I think this was the original intent of the term "heirloom" for tomatoes, but it has been stretched and bent over the years by commercial interests to a point where it has lost much of its meaning.

TomNJ

[mrdoitall]

Check out what Twinkies are going for on eBay Link>http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_saca...winkie&_sop=16

[TomNJ]

But are they "heirloom" Twinkies?