The appeal of Dwarfs

[Father'sDaughter]

I've heard of some people getting non-dwarf plants from dwarf seeds. So far it's never happened for me. Not sure what would cause it. Maybe crossed seed or a variety that isn't 100% stable??

I've grown Fred's Tie Dye, Tastywine, Dwarf Pink Passion, Boronia, a few developing Ivaldi selections, and this year I grew out ten F2s of a couple of dwarf pastes--half in the ground and half in grow bags. All plants, except for one of the grow bag pastes, were in the 2-4 foot range.

Of the ones I have grown over several years that have since been released, Tastywine had amazing flavor and decent production (about a dozen medium size fruit per plant in better years), Dwarf Pink Passion loaded up with fruit and had very good flavor last time I grew it (two plants produced almost five dozen small to medium tomatoes), and Fred's Tie Dye had about the same production as Tastywine.

This year I had a really bad season for tomatoes and the ten dwarf F2 paste plants produced almost the same amount of fruit by weight as my 17 indeterminate paste varieties. They saved my season from being a complete bust.

For me, in my growing conditions and climate, I could easily see myself switching over to all dwarfs if/when the time comes that I am no longer able to deal with 6' plus tomato plants.

[dmforcier]

Originally Posted by AlittleSalt

I guess I just don't get it about dwarf tomato plants. If it grows 6 feet tall - how can it be a dwarf?

They don't - well, not all of them. Mine were 3-4', and that's the size I typically hear reported. There may still be some size variability in the strains, though I believe that the Project grows through F9 before release.

BTW, mine were in 10" pots; on autopsy none were rootbound. So size not restricted by pot. With your RKN, will you be growing in pots this coming year?

[Cole_Robbie]

Dwarf is a gene, or at least one of a few genes. It's apparent in seedlings from the thickness of the stem and stout growth pattern.

Soil quality influences height. Most of my dwarfs get 5-6' tall, and that happens within a couple months. There's no real height limit, especially with the indeterminate dwarfs. If a person were to over-winter a dwarf plant in a greenhouse environment, possibly for multiple winters, I think it would probably get 10-12' tall if you wanted it to. The base of the stem would be so thick, you'd need a chain saw to cut it down.

[AlittleSalt]

We are talking about growing in pots. It depends on how much it will cost more than anything.

Cole, I understand a little better now. Thanks

[nctomatoman]

Interesting thread. A few things - first, we put a LOT of tomatoes out in a short period of time. What is important is feedback - which varieties grown where. I expect to see lots of variation on which will do better (or worse) with the large number of variables - zone, sun exposure, weather that season, varying disease tolerance for a particular area. We have a survey that is being populated - the link is here. The uniqueness of the project is in how many people have volunteered (over 300), how little we've gotten paid (nothing!), and the dual aim of hoping to create some interesting tomatoes for space challenged gardeners, and all learn some interesting genetics along the way. It started out as a bit of fun, and has ended up so far beyond what we imagined it's not possible to fully absorb (for Patrina and I, anyway)

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1F...n4R8g/viewform

There are 80 responses so far - we are hoping for hundreds. It is how we will learn about them.

Certainly, sun exposure, length of growing season, other factors will determine the eventual height. As I like to say, for me (and I've not only grown them all, but worked on most of them), they behave like indeterminates that grow at half the rate. So if you end up with a 12 foot Sun Gold or Cherokee Purple by the end of the season, your dwarfs may indeed end up at 6 feet tall - half the height.

But they are distinct right from the start - showing that half-height just after germination, and once foliage shows, the rugose, crinkly form.

I am sure that out of the near 70 ( the number we will hit within a few months), some will be widely loved, others perhaps more polarizing (love/hate). I myself don't love them all - but put some of them on a par with the best indeterminates in flavor, with the advantage of the shorter height and happiness in a relatively small container.

[schill93]

It will be very interesting to hear the outcome of the survey. Wish more would participate in it for you. I'm afraid I haven't grown any yet to report on. Next year will be my first, but I have six varieties picked out to try my first year. Very grateful for all of your hard work.

There is a lady here in Vegas, that has a blog and has made some video's on YouTube who grew Wild Fred and loved it. She shows all the tomatoes on it and tells how good it produced. You can find it by typing Wild Fred tomato on YouTube.

[Gerardo]

Originally Posted by Cole_Robbie

If a person were to over-winter a dwarf plant in a greenhouse environment, possibly for multiple winters, I think it would probably get 10-12' tall if you wanted it to. The base of the stem would be so thick, you'd need a chain saw to cut it down.

I just transplanted 3 rosella p's to a large 30 gal root pot. I'll keep them going as an experiment. I let a tasm choc go for the whole year and as long as I kept feeding it, blooms and fruit would follow.

[Gerardo]

Originally Posted by nctomatoman

Interesting thread. A few things - first, we put a LOT of tomatoes out in a short period of time. What is important is feedback - which varieties grown where. I expect to see lots of variation on which will do better (or worse) with the large number of variables - zone, sun exposure, weather that season, varying disease tolerance for a particular area. We have a survey that is being populated - the link is here. The uniqueness of the project is in how many people have volunteered (over 300), how little we've gotten paid (nothing!), and the dual aim of hoping to create some interesting tomatoes for space challenged gardeners, and all learn some interesting genetics along the way. It started out as a bit of fun, and has ended up so far beyond what we imagined it's not possible to fully absorb (for Patrina and I, anyway)

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1F...n4R8g/viewform

There are 80 responses so far - we are hoping for hundreds. It is how we will learn about them.

Certainly, sun exposure, length of growing season, other factors will determine the eventual height. As I like to say, for me (and I've not only grown them all, but worked on most of them), they behave like indeterminates that grow at half the rate. So if you end up with a 12 foot Sun Gold or Cherokee Purple by the end of the season, your dwarfs may indeed end up at 6 feet tall - half the height.

But they are distinct right from the start - showing that half-height just after germination, and once foliage shows, the rugose, crinkly form.

I am sure that out of the near 70 ( the number we will hit within a few months), some will be widely loved, others perhaps more polarizing (love/hate). I myself don't love them all - but put some of them on a par with the best indeterminates in flavor, with the advantage of the shorter height and happiness in a relatively small container.

Many thanks to Patrina, nctomatoman, and all the volunteers.

[tash11]

I planted a few dwarfs in my front garden this year, this bed is a 8" raised bed that we filled with compost a couple years ago. Under it is Ohio clay. I did not give them extra fert because I had a racoon problem with digging up plants and I didn't want to give it any extra reason to dig around. This bed is on the east side of my house and gets no evening sun, but I would still consider it the low end of 'full sun' as it does get plenty of morning to mid day and very early afternoon sun. My dwarfs grew to between 2 and 4 feet depending on the plant.

Uluru Ochre was the biggest at about 4'. Put on several batches of 3-4 1lb fruit that felt like they took forever to ripen (but it was probably just me being impatient).

Pit Viper (not DTP) was very productive and the fruit were pretty and the plant bushy and short (I didn't prune at all).

My smallest dwarf was Arctic Rose, I don't think she even made it to 2'. Production was reflected in the small size.

Amethyst Jewel was one of the larger dwarfs too, maybe 4-5'? But not as bushy and more productive then UO.

I think most of my dwarfs were about 3' though-Blazing Beauty, Perth pride, Sweet Adelaide, Tasmanian Chocolate (maybe just under 3'), Sweet Scarlet....

I didn't measure any of these though, I am going on my memory of tying them and the fact that my stakes were about 3' tall (out of ground), and most of the plants were not too tall to be way over the stake, but they were close to the stakes size. Basically I am just saying I didn't have any dwarfs taller then me and I am 5'5". I don't think any were even comparable in height to my 10yo who is about 4'6" or so.

[dmforcier]

tash there are other ferts besides raccoon bait ..err.. fish meal.

[schill93]

Originally Posted by dmforcier

tash there are other ferts besides raccoon bait ..err.. fish meal.

What organic fertilizer would you recommend that doesn't smell and attract animals.

I just used some Mater Magic (cause I bought it for $1 on clearance at Walmart)
I can't keep my dog out of there, and these are in large pots.

[dmforcier]

I dunno, I don't use organic ferts. Monsanto has always done right by me.

[Shrinkrap]

Originally Posted by nctomatoman

Interesting thread. A few things - first, we put a LOT of tomatoes out in a short period of time. What is important is feedback - which varieties grown where. I expect to see lots of variation on which will do better (or worse) with the large number of variables - zone, sun exposure, weather that season, varying disease tolerance for a particular area. We have a survey that is being populated - the link is here. The uniqueness of the project is in how many people have volunteered (over 300), how little we've gotten paid (nothing!), and the dual aim of hoping to create some interesting tomatoes for space challenged gardeners, and all learn some interesting genetics along the way. It started out as a bit of fun, and has ended up so far beyond what we imagined it's not possible to fully absorb (for Patrina and I, anyway)

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1F...n4R8g/viewform

There are 80 responses so far - we are hoping for hundreds. It is how we will learn about them.

Certainly, sun exposure, length of growing season, other factors will determine the eventual height. As I like to say, for me (and I've not only grown them all, but worked on most of them), they behave like indeterminates that grow at half the rate. So if you end up with a 12 foot Sun Gold or Cherokee Purple by the end of the season, your dwarfs may indeed end up at 6 feet tall - half the height.

But they are distinct right from the start - showing that half-height just after germination, and once foliage shows, the rugose, crinkly form.

I am sure that out of the near 70 ( the number we will hit within a few months), some will be widely loved, others perhaps more polarizing (love/hate). I myself don't love them all - but put some of them on a par with the best indeterminates in flavor, with the advantage of the shorter height and happiness in a relatively small container.

That makes sense. Dwarf Purple Heart for example, was an amazingly attractive plant, and was very stocky, but topped out around 5 feet. Boronia and Chocolate Lightening just kept growing. Almost all were full sized, beautiful tomatoes in colors I have never tried to grow in pots. I especially like the look of the dark striped ones BEFORE they ripened.

When I grew in the ground, I was trying to manage lanes that were bigger, and I couldn't monitor them as easily.

[oakley]

Having just picked my last two rock hard green tomatoes, and 8 ripe SunGold, (two un-ripe and very hard/green)...I ate 4 and shared two, it is a tad exciting to have pulled in two tomato 'house' plants. Now flanking my MeyerLemon tree in a sunny south window.

Very experimental for me having not even attempted a grow bag or a dwarf until this past June. About the time i was planting my garden heirlooms, i started another 36 cell seed tray of dwarfs. Just a few varieties to watch the stout babies grow. Just for kicks. Ordered seeds late really for next season but what the heck...

A few went to city friends to try on their small patios/window ledges.

I kept these two on a stone wall in front of the barn and let them go, no pruning. The central stems i let fall forward as the sun encouraged. They were lovely. I can see having at least a dozen next year or more. The fallen forward central stems were maybe 30 inches. The laterals grew up and stocky. I moved them to the city in early September and they spent time on the deck bench raised on up-turned buckets. Last Sunday i cut the central thick stems with Felcos. And now i have 'DwarfRussianSwirl-laterals' growing inside and budding. (actually not sure the variety yet...i use #s and the grow map is up-state in the barn)

This was not planned but what a hoot. The upper left is a pic from last night. They will get some T5 time. And a feeding schedule maybe osmokote.

I'm starting a 36 cell tray of micros as soon as all the seeds arrive for some winter experimenting. I've been growing micro greens the past few years so this may not be that difficult to tend.

So the benefit is also movability and travel. And just maybe some winter tomatoes.

[oakley]

Please do correct anything that seems off or help advising success. You can see the central stem cuts. These are the 2 gallon bags with the tops folded over about shy 2inces. (2 gal being more like one gallon). I like how stable they are like heavy bean bags. Very easy to move to the sink to water, feed, and check for troubles under good light.