Need recommendation for a tomato in the south.

[BigVanVader]

Originally Posted by frankcar1965

I suggest anything early or midseason, that is what I am doing now and not worrying about heat tolerance. We have heat here in LA and the humidity to go with it too and I am more concerned that I get a crop BEFORE it gets too hot. No matter what variety you choose it will only get you a week or two more of pollination before the nights get too hot. I'm trying to stay at or below 70 days but it is hard to find just the right ones that I want.

I routinely get 80-90 day tomatoes to ripen by mid July (when the pain train of heat hits here) by starting early indoors and planting into raised pre-warmed soil covered in reflective plastic. I nearly matched my best season total by July last year. Just starting indoors 12 weeks before frost dates will work. Just keep blooms picked until the plant is big enough to handle fruiting. Seems to really make them eager to grow when you finally let em.

[frankcar1965]

Bill you do know that this is opposite from all known scientific data? My own experience and all Ag recommendations and advice tell the opposite story. I think if you really are getting pollination out of tomatoes in the heat possibly you might need to have someone document your methods and study them. No one like myself will never believe it until it is verified by another authority and you may just be onto something. This seems to be a biological anomaly that should be investigated.

[frankcar1965]

Yes but what kind of set do you get in July and August? I have fruit in July too, at least the first part, but none sets in July, it is just what has already been pollinated. Most recommendations are to plant new tomatoes in late July and August for fall tomatoes.

[FredB]

There are parthenocarpic varieties that set seedless fruit without pollination. Two of them are Heatwave Hybrid and Early Cascade Hybrid. I haven't tried Heatwave, but I like Early Cascade.

There are several parthenocarpic open-pollinated tomato varieties (see thread below). Early Cascade Hybrid was developed by the same breeder. They were bred to overcome poor pollination in cold weather, but they will also set when it is too hot for pollination. You would need to baby them to keep them alive in the extreme heat, but they should work.

http://tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=12996

[FredB]

Another good parthenocarpic tomato is "Legend". It is determinate, so it will set a single crop that will ripen all at once.

http://extension.oregonstate.edu/gardening/node/469

[frankcar1965]

The link says nothing about hot weather at all, it's all about cold setting. Neither are any that Bill has mentioned. I still would need to see it to believe it. The other point you made is the upkeep which seems considerable.
I have never known anyone to get fruit that has set in the heat here, even if you want to eat any that has gone through all the heat, I have picked some at first blush and brought them in and when they "ripened" they were terrible, high heat must do something to them.
My father once cut back his plants and kept them watered and they grew back out and made a few for fall but that doesn't really count. The Oregon State link does not mention heat either, why would they? It's Oregon!

[Gardeneer]

Well the reason for tomato not setting fruit in high heat and humidity is that that pollen won't be viable. In parthenocarpic plant there is no need for pollination. IMO t does not make a difference whether it is (1) because of the lack of pollen , (2) Cold , or (3) high heat/humidity.
So maybe it is possible that those varieties that set fruits in high heat/humidity are naturally parthenocarpic. Or their pollen is not affected. Just a possibility !

[teyger]

frank, I'm in SW Louisiana. Although I have never specifically paid attention to fruit set during the heat of summer, I can say for sure I have had plants set fruit straight through the heat of summer. Most of the time my plants succumb to disease before the end of summer. One variety I can say for sure set fruit through the entire summer this past year was a Super Sweet 100. I finally cut it down in September with it still setting fruit but it was infested and was so large it was a pain to bother with anymore.

[frankcar1965]

That is a cherry and they keep producing as long as you keep them disease free, how about a big slicer? Still not convinced and will need links to parthenocarpic tomatoes and heat set. If it can happen then commercial growers would be doing it. They take the summer off in FL because of the heat and start again in the fall for winter.
https://agdev.anr.udel.edu/weeklycropupdate/?p=4489

"In South Florida, tomatoes are planted continuously between August and February. Tomato growing seasons are typically defined as fall, winter, and spring, with planting dates between 15 Aug. and 15 Oct., 16 Oct. and 15 Dec., and 16 Dec. and 15 Feb., respectively (Ozores-Hampton et al. 2006). Based on planting season, the length of the growing season averages 18, 20, and 16 weeks for fall, winter, and spring, respectively. Historical temperatures (average +/- standard deviation in °F) from a weather station located in Immokalee, FL, are 79.6 +/- 1.5, 69.0 +/- 4.4, and 67.4 +/- 6.2 for fall, winter, and spring, respectively. Hence, restrictions in marketable tomato yields in the fall planting season are primarily due to temperatures above 85°F during the day and 70°F during the night together with high rainfall and RH (Figure 5a). During the winter, temperatures below 55°F during the night often lower marketable tomato yields (Figure 5b). In the spring season, high marketable tomato yields are due to ideal temperatures during the day and night (70°F and 85°F) (Figure 5c)."

[jtjmartin]

Frank:

What am I missing? Your quote says "restrictions in . . . yields." That is not an elimination of yields. Here's another link from the University of Florida:

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/hs1195

This article refers to "reduced fruit set" (not elimination of fruit set) and then discusses techniques to increase fruit set and varieties that are less affected by the heat and humidity.

How does that differ from what B54red is saying?

Jeff

[frankcar1965]

It means no yield that is why they stop during the summer. From the same article-
High temperature: Sustained high temperatures, especially at night, rapidly deplete the food reserves that are produced in the tomato during the day. The result is sticky pollen, altered viability, and poor or no pollination. Ultimately, the blossom dries and falls off. Female flower parts can also undergo morphological changes, such as drying of the stigma (Mills 1988; Ozores-Hampton and McAvoy 2010).


Frankly, there is not enough yield to justify cultivation, I do not call a few misshapen fruits a crop and really do not believe Bill. Why would they stop in summer if they get a could still get a crop? I really do not believe it and would have to see it myself. What else can I say? NO ONE I know gets tomatoes all summer why should I believe Bill does? I think he should contact UF extension and let them know his methods, they might want to know them. Why not and see what they say?

[b54red]

Originally Posted by frankcar1965

It means no yield that is why they stop during the summer. From the same article-
High temperature: Sustained high temperatures, especially at night, rapidly deplete the food reserves that are produced in the tomato during the day. The result is sticky pollen, altered viability, and poor or no pollination. Ultimately, the blossom dries and falls off. Female flower parts can also undergo morphological changes, such as drying of the stigma (Mills 1988; Ozores-Hampton and McAvoy 2010).


Frankly, there is not enough yield to justify cultivation, I do not call a few misshapen fruits a crop and really do not believe Bill. Why would they stop in summer if they get a could still get a crop? I really do not believe it and would have to see it myself. What else can I say? NO ONE I know gets tomatoes all summer why should I believe Bill does? I think he should contact UF extension and let them know his methods, they might want to know them. Why not and see what they say?

There are a multitude of reasons why commercial growers don't try to grow in the hottest months. One, yield is considerably lower making commercial growing less profitable. Two is the fruits will not look as good and the skins can crack from rain that time of the year far worse than when it is cooler. Three is spider mites. Four is the amount of water required. Most commercial growers plant under black plastic and feed with drip irrigation and the plastic would heat up the soil even more causing far less fruit set than I get with cypress mulch under my plants because I have tried it and it cut production in the summer heat dramatically. Five, most of the commercial varieties are not really that good at setting in the heat that I have tried and I have tried a lot of them over the years. A sixth reason is that a lot of the best heat setting tomatoes are black varieties that are not as good for commercial growing because they don't ship or store as long as the commercial varieties and besides they wouldn't sell too well even if they did grow them. I have a friend who does some truck farming and he had a hard time selling them because most people want a round red tomato. Another reason for not pursuing mid and late summer production from a commercial view is that the tomatoes just don't look as pretty being smaller and with thicker skins and more flaws in the skin from the summer harshness. None of these things is a major deciding factor for me. The things that do affect me the most are too much rain and foliage disease. Spider mites will cut down my production at times if I don't take care of them soon enough but I have found a spray mix that does take care of them if used promptly.

I have never made the claim that I get huge summer production nor would I even want it by that time of the year. I just want a nice steady supply of tomatoes for fresh eating and to give away a few to my best friends and relatives. Comparatively speaking I don't set out nearly as many plants later in the season as in my first two plantings. Even with the cypress mulch it takes a lot of watering to maximize heat set during the blooming stage and most people don't want to make the effort and just wait for the plants to wilt before watering. If you do that all you will get is blossom drop and little or no fruit. I have to cut back on watering once the fruit start getting near the ripening stage but once I do that the fruit set on those plants is cut back dramatically which is another reason to have more younger plants coming on.

Actually the flavor of most of the black varieties is even better in the summer heat as long as they don't get too much rain. Some of the reds are actually quite good but most of the pink varieties are much harder to grow during that time with the exception of Pruden's Purple. I am still searching for more varieties that do well in the heat. Thicker skins, skin splits and flaws are a factor in the looks of the summer tomatoes but not so much a factor in their taste. Another reason I get so much better production than most is that I have new plants coming on all the way through the season and like I said new plants set much better than older plants especially in the heat of mid and late summer. Once fall arrives any of the plants still alive will usually set okay if they can make it to ripeness before they freeze.

Bill

[agee12]

Great discussion/debate.

Bill/b54red please consider setting up a separate thread that will serve as a journal for your tomato planting, I was hoping that you would do something like that since I started your reading your comments about growing in the heat. I am hoping that one of the the pepper gurus would do the same.

When I recap in my head Bill's comments / recommendations about growing tomatoes in the heat, three things stick out to me, as a newbie gardener two are doable, one is not so doable. Those three things are succession planting (which I had kind of figured out already and others recommend as well), selection of certain varieties and grafting. Speaking only for myself, the grafting is not something I feel capable of doing at this point. Still I think that there is a lot for a newbie like me to learn by cyber-observing and mimicking Bill's planting approach. Note I also remember other recommendations like the mulching and preventing / treating disease.

Perhaps one of the tomato gurus can consider launching a variation of the Dwarf Tomato Project where people do come together and document their experiences growing in the heat. This seems to be a topic that several tomato growers are interested in and seek out communities like Tomatoville to get information and guidance on.

I get Frank's dubiousness and I think that he is right to caution against getting the hopes up of newbies like me. From reading several of Bill's posts I don't think that he is claiming that prolific tomato growth during the hottest months is an easy undertaking and even possible, but misimpressions can be formed, even if not intended, from one or two isolated comments that's part of some random topic.

[BigVanVader]

I have always had tomatoes set in high heat. I mean everyone that grows them does I would think. I guess I am confused by your claim that they dont/wont set in heat. I mean it doesn't get below 90 here for a couple of months in the summer with humidity staying above 50% most of that time and everyone at my farmers market still has tomatoes. Production certainly slows and some varieties do better than others but no set in heat means you arent doing something right.

[frankcar1965]

Funny you ignore the data from people who study these things and not just grow them in their back yards for fun and others personal experience. And no one at my farmer's market has tomatoes past the first of July. Those that you see at your FM probably are shipped in from somewhere else, make sure what you see there is from your area and from up north. The FM in Dallas has everything you would want to buy all year, most of it is shipped in, it's just a big "market".
I just want Bill to document and have someone look into his methods, their may be something to it after all, why keep it a secret when others can benefit like all of us? I know lots of people here who would want to get tomatoes all summer. I would like it so I did not have to plant something else like watermelons or peas/beans which I have resorted to.