FREEZE WARNINGS!!!!!!

[bughunter99]

The problem in a nutshell is this: 40% of births in the USA, more in third world countries are unplanned. The earth does not have unlimited resources OR unlimited ability to recover from the poisons that increasing numbers of humans are throwing at it. Until people wake up, stop wringing their hands and acknowledge the issue at the heart of the problem-unrestricted population explosion. It is ALL going to continue to go down hill. Those that deny that there is a problem are not paying attention or too fearful to acknowledge it. Or too perhaps unwilling to acknowledge that as we ALL are part of the problem we ALL bear responsibility to try and help solve it.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/cdc-40-...ry?id=16840288


Stacy

[Worth1]

Originally Posted by bughunter99

The problem in a nutshell is this: 40% of births in the USA, more in third world countries are unplanned. The earth does not have unlimited resources OR unlimited ability to recover from the poisons that increasing numbers of humans are throwing at it. Until people wake up, stop wringing their hands and acknowledge the issue at the heart of the problem-unrestricted population explosion. It is ALL going to continue to go down hill. Those that deny that there is a problem are not paying attention or too fearful to acknowledge it. Or too perhaps unwilling to acknowledge that as we ALL are part of the problem we ALL bear responsibility to try and help solve it.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/cdc-40-...ry?id=16840288


Stacy

Not that I disagree it is just that the report comes from the news.
If you will notice everything is taken out of context.
When that happens you get to read or hear a lopsided agenda based report that is sometimes almost worthless.


I will admit that we have a long way to go when it comes to unwanted children in the USA.

Before that happens people are going to have to wake up and realize a few things.
I cant even begin to mention any of them here so I wont.

I can say one of the best things a girls father ever told me was.-----------
"I know what you and my daughter are doing.
You better be careful because she is lazy wont work do cores or anything.
She will not make a good wife.
I dont want you to have to marry her I like you and you can do so much better."

I took his advice and moved on.
One year later she had a baby by some other guy out of wedlock.
I was still friends with the family and I got home from the Marines and went over.
She was there with the baby and the guy was sitting next to her.
She was a tiny little thing about 100 pounds and about 5 feet tall.
He was dirt poor and had no future at all and she didn't either.
She looked at me with those big beautiful brown eyes.
They had tears in them.

I looked back and some how I knew she knew what I was thinking.
I would have never done that to her.

What I am saying is it is more than statistics and numbers.
It is more than just population control.

All of these numbers represent people and there lives.

I spent the night in a camper at their house and went someplace else the next day.
I never saw them again as my life moved on.
To this day (about 36 years later)as you can see I still wonder what ever happened to her and that child.

Statistically they didn't stand a chance.
Worth

[oldasrocks]

Originally Posted by bughunter99

The problem in a nutshell is this: 40% of births in the USA, more in third world countries are unplanned. The earth does not have unlimited resources OR unlimited ability to recover from the poisons that increasing numbers of humans are throwing at it. Until people wake up, stop wringing their hands and acknowledge the issue at the heart of the problem-unrestricted population explosion. It is ALL going to continue to go down hill. Those that deny that there is a problem are not paying attention or too fearful to acknowledge it. Or too perhaps unwilling to acknowledge that as we ALL are part of the problem we ALL bear responsibility to try and help solve it.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/cdc-40-...ry?id=16840288


Stacy

Won't ever happen- "waking up" The people that over breed unfortunately are a lot that has no idea of the world situation. Some other countries still want extra kids to do the work. others want soldiers born, others have nothing else to do at night.

[bughunter99]

Originally Posted by oldasrocks

Won't ever happen- "waking up" The people that over breed unfortunately are a lot that has no idea of the world situation. Some other countries still want extra kids to do the work. others want soldiers born, others have nothing else to do at night.

Yes, all of those things are part of the problem-world-wide and they are very difficult problems indeed, I agree. Other big issues exist too, say in this country some take fertility drugs to improve their chances of twins, "because they are cool", or plan big families "because they came from a big family and want one and even though they can't afford it, they want what they want", or don't want a family but can't afford the means to effectively prevent one, or have not been well educated on how to prevent pregnancy, or don't want the stigma of not having children that our society still perpetuates in some circles. Or have big families because it is "tradition".

Its a big big problem with deep old roots.

I apologize oldasrocks for getting off topic in your thread, I will bow out of the population talk and wish you well regarding the frost damage prevention.

Stacy

[Worth1]

We need to get this weather thing on the right track as soon as possible.

We need to jump start evolution and develop a tomato plant that will handle cold weather and still set fruit in high heat.
It also needs to be able to withstand extreme drought and grow in sorry soil.

It should also be able to spread and make runners and live in a swamp.

What I would suggest would be take the genes from a tomato for its flavor and fruit.
Genes from an agave parryi truncata for its ability to handle temps into the teens and grow anywhere.
And genes from Bermuda grass so it will run and spread and set seeds in extreme heat.
Genes from a cattail so it will live in a swamp.
Who knows what kind of nightmare plant this would be.

Worth

[oldasrocks]

alfalfa genes so it makes it own nitrogen and Venus Fly trap genes so it can eat the bugs that attack it.

[2nd Foundation]

Originally Posted by bughunter99

The problem in a nutshell is this: 40% of births in the USA, more in third world countries are unplanned. The earth does not have unlimited resources OR unlimited ability to recover from the poisons that increasing numbers of humans are throwing at it. Until people wake up, stop wringing their hands and acknowledge the issue at the heart of the problem-unrestricted population explosion. It is ALL going to continue to go down hill. Those that deny that there is a problem are not paying attention or too fearful to acknowledge it. Or too perhaps unwilling to acknowledge that as we ALL are part of the problem we ALL bear responsibility to try and help solve it.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/cdc-40-...ry?id=16840288


Stacy

Couldn't agree more. Overpopulation is the root of so many, if not all of the problems facing the world right now and throughout history. Pretty much everything can be traced back to it. The human species will not be able to make any real progress until it gets it's birth rate under control.

[2nd Foundation]

And to the earlier discussion, there is zero debate about climate change among the scientific community. Any 'debate' you hear unfortunately comes from a few loud and monied interests. Hopefully we can stick to the science please, and I'd like to think this is a pretty scientific board, considering we're dealing with plant biology, soil science, meteorology, etc. when growing tomatoes and other plants.

[Chucker]

Originally Posted by 2nd Foundation

And to the earlier discussion, there is zero debate about climate change among the scientific community. Any 'debate' you hear unfortunately comes from a few loud and monied interests. Hopefully we can stick to the science please, and I'd like to think this is a pretty scientific board, considering we're dealing with plant biology, soil science, meteorology, etc. when growing tomatoes and other plants.

As a scientist, I am just going to post this quote and leave it at that:

If scientists are constantly trying to make new discoveries or to develop new concepts and theories, then the body of knowledge produced by science should undergo constant change. Such change is progress toward a better understanding of nature. It is achieved by constantly questioning whether our current ideas are correct. As the famous American astronomer Maria Mitchell (1818-1889) put it, "Question everything".

Source: http://www.gly.uga.edu/railsback/1122science2.html

[2nd Foundation]

So you're part of the 3%? You really believe that 97% of scientists worldwide got together to hide the truth? You're going to dispute them? Good luck with that.

NASA: "Temperature data from four international science institutions. All show rapid warming in the past few decades and that the last decade has been the warmest on record. // Ninety-seven percent of climate scientists agree that climate-warming trends over the past century are very likely due to human activities, and most of the leading scientific organizations worldwide have issued public statements endorsing this position. The following is a partial list of these organizations, along with links to their published statements and a selection of related resources..."

NASA: http://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus

Absolutely nothing to do with politics, this is undeniable science and the fact.

~Caroline

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by 2nd Foundation

So you're part of the 3%? You really believe that 97% of scientists worldwide got together to hide the truth? You're going to dispute them? Good luck with that.

NASA: "Temperature data from four international science institutions. All show rapid warming in the past few decades and that the last decade has been the warmest on record. // Ninety-seven percent of climate scientists agree that climate-warming trends over the past century are very likely due to human activities, and most of the leading scientific organizations worldwide have issued public statements endorsing this position. The following is a partial list of these organizations, along with links to their published statements and a selection of related resources..."

NASA: http://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus

Absolutely nothing to do with politics, this is undeniable science and the fact.

~Caroline

It is true that AGW is based on observable evidence + solid physics and is thus the science is very robust. However there are two parts that are not very robust at all. One as I mentioned above is the predictive models. Another is mitigation proposals. This is where science can advance and change and should advance and change. It is also where the political and social factors start mucking up the science. We saw it here in this thread. Worth mentioned the freezing weather patterns were related to AGW, I mentioned a mitigation proposal, and bingo, a socio-political discussion about population control pops up out of no-where. It happens on nearly every forum this sort of discussion starts. Luckily this forum highly discourages political discussions. I found myself 5 times starting to post but stopping. I had to just bite my tongue.

Back to the original link between extreme weather, even cold weather, as a result of AGW. That's based on a predictive model. So it is likely, but not certain. Here is a very good non-biased discussion of the phenomenon with no politics from NOAA.

Did Global Warming Cause the Polar Vortex?

I already discussed mitigation in my last post. But to dig deeper there most certainly starts to get into politics. So once again...bite my tongue.

[2nd Foundation]

Yeah, it's too bad that in this country there are groups of people who seem to think that scientific evidence is somehow up for political debate. l'll leave tonight with a quote from one of my favorite Astrophysicists :
~Caroline

[oldasrocks]

Quit fighting kids. Yes the climate is changing and it has for millions of years. Mankind might make a 1% or less difference compared to a volcano which can spill out millions of tons of CO2 or whatever in a single day but so what? It boils down to accept reality and deal with it.

Ma ,the crick is a rising cause you've been baking too many cookies on your wood stove as pa talks with his mouth full of cookie. So they argue while the beavers diligently build up their dam.

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by oldasrocks

Quit fighting kids. Yes the climate is changing and it has for millions of years. Mankind might make a 1% or less difference compared to a volcano which can spill out millions of tons of CO2 or whatever in a single day but so what? It boils down to accept reality and deal with it.

Ma ,the crick is a rising cause you've been baking too many cookies on your wood stove as pa talks with his mouth full of cookie. So they argue while the beavers diligently build up their dam.

You are forgiven because you are old as rocks and your generation had no idea what they were doing. Even my generation had only the slightest clue. But AGW is a lot more than 1% or less. The atmospheric CO2 has increased ~25% in just the last 50 years. That's way off the scale of less than 1 % and levels like these haven't been seen since the Dinosaurs! And the rate of increase hasn't been seen ever, short of the few mass extinction events found in the fossil records. Take a look here:

CO2 Trends

See that red line? How it goes up and down radically? That's nature. Photosynthesis and decay. The seasonal carbon cycle or short carbon cycle. The black line shows the net average increase in atmospheric CO2. In my honest opinion that shows the real reason why any mitigation proposals need to focus on the natural carbon cycle. It is vastly larger than any fossil fuel emissions, even at its much reduced rate caused by 40% of the land being currently under agricultural management. Restore the Long term carbon cycle and that red line dips farther and rises less. Now that change wouldn't have to be all that much to off set current trends, because that is a lot bigger number. Sure alternative energy needs research and development, but that is a much smaller number and seldom goes negative. The natural cycle goes negative every year by MUCH more than any increase made by fossil fuels. Unfortunately it doesn't stick because we broke the long term carbon cycle into the soil in the form of humus on almost all the arable land of the entire planet. So while the plants are doing their job, it ends up releasing right back into the atmosphere again, because of what we have done to the soils.

Since this forum is an agricultural forum mainly. I think it is very much on topic to discuss how we gardeners and farmers can do our part by making sure we do our best to insure the soils under our management are sequestering carbon. And it's not like that is all that particularly hard or uncommon. We all want that rich black high humus soil to grow in. There are many posts here with ideas on how to do that. AND It makes our tomatoes grow so much better!

[carolyn137]

I do think we're getting way off topic in this thread, and while many of the offtopic threads are interesting it always engenders some strong points of view that turn out to be contentious as is quite evident from some posts above.

So how about getting back to the original topic.

Climate change, polar vortexes, impacts on peoples in many different regions of this world of ours are more suitable, I would think, in the 2 cents offtopic Forum, and if you look there I know if you look back in that Forum you'll see that there already are lots of threads dealing with most of these off topic issues that have been posted here.

Thanks in advance for getting back to the original topic.

Carolyn