A community designed to produce its own food

[AlittleSalt]

Why is it relevant? A better question is, "Why is it not relevant?"

Those are internet BS numbers. You and everyone else knows it.

[gorbelly]

Originally Posted by AlittleSalt

Why is it relevant? A better question is, "Why is it not relevant?"

Nobody mischaracterized what the US or any of those other countries exports, so I don't know why they're needed. Someone did GROSSLY mischaracterize what the NL exports, which is why I brought it up in response.

Originally Posted by AlittleSalt

Those are internet BS numbers. You and everyone else knows it.

I'm not really sure what you mean by "internet BS numbers". Sure, stats can be different depending on the criteria involved. That doesn't necessarily make them "BS". It just requires that one always exercise one's critical faculties and reason when looking at statistics.

My main purpose in bringing it up is to point out that the Netherlands in no way is the kind of economy whose top export would be flower bulbs.

Was that difficult to understand in context? Is it your contention that the Netherlands' #1 export is actually flower bulbs, and all of the various agencies and orgs that gather and publish data on national economies are lying about this? I don't understand.

[AlittleSalt]

Gorbelly, the internet is BS.. Do you honestly think that governments/countries are gong to be honest about numbers?

[gorbelly]

The Internet is just a medium to transmit information. Like ink and paper. Or radio waves. I don't believe in a post-fact world. With any medium, you have to have the tools to be able to judge whether the sources coming through through that medium are credible. Simply not wanting to believe anything unless it suits one is religion, not reason. If you believe nothing on the Internet is true, it's basically no different than believing everything on the Internet is true.

But that's a more philosophical discussion for which this is probably not the right outlet.

I'm just trying to understand your comments within the scope of this particular topic. Is it your intention to imply that Black Krim is more believable (based on his memory of a source he doesn't name) than, say, what the current stats published by the OECD are? I mean, do you believe it's credible that the government of the Netherlands is engaged in a conspiracy to pretend falsely that they are a diversifed, developed economy and basically one of the top exporting economies in the world, that they're really trying to hide that they're just a country that produces flower bulbs?

[Jimbotomateo]

Thanks guys. I've always been confused about the Dutch and the Danish so I looked on Wiki and another site and I'm certainly not expert on subject but have a tiny bit more knowledge now. Lol. Apparently there's a lot of Americans who are confused on this. Weird. I found out that twenty percent of people living in the Netherlands are not considered Dutch. Holland is a part of the Netherlands. Yada yada. Anyway looking forward to more enlightening from tvillers on this and other subjects and slightly embarrassed to admit lack of knowledge on something elementary kids probably know front and back. Now who wears wooden shoes? Lol. Dutch or Danes.

[gorbelly]

Perhaps it will be helpful if I contextualize why I brought up the topic of exports.

Black Krim said this:

Originally Posted by Black Krim

I'm sure the Dutch will use the best materials. Afterall, flowers are their number one export. Or was. That is an old stat from 10-15 years ago.

as a snide way to imply the Dutch wouldn't do a good job because they're the kind of country whose top export is flowers.

My specific point in pulling up that list of Dutch exports was to show that Black Krim's impression that the NL is some kind of backward nation whose main product is flower bulbs is a seriously wrong picture of their society and its industry. The nature of their exports is in line with most other developed wealthy nations, so that is a totally inaccurate basis to use if you want to cast doubt on Dutch society's ability to build things well.

My main point was not about exports at all. It was about why a project like this might have a better chance of succeeding than we cynical Americans want to believe because it's being done in a country like the Netherlands. Exports in and of themselves aren't directly relevant to what makes a country good at ambitious building projects, large scale public works, etc.

What matters is culture. To accomplish big or ambitious public projects well or maintain and improve public infrastructure, you need:

1. Communal political will that can be relied on long-term, especially to commit public funding, that lasts despite changes in which party/parties are in power
   
2. A political system that allows for pre-emptive action on problems that are inevitable or currently low-grade but not immediate or urgent right now
   
3. Low levels of corruption and fraud
   
4. Enough willing, smart human beings with the necessary skills for the work that is needed

The US has particular problems with the first two.

A place like, say, China has big problems with the third.

The NL has what's necessary to be able to do these things and has and continues to do these things. Probably because they have to.

Their history is one of a densely populated nation that has had to do things like reclaim land from the sea to have enough land for people and agriculture and contend with the constant threat of flooding since most of its agricultural land and a portion of its population is below sea level. Also, shipping has always played a dominant and crucial role in their economy, and making sure that waterways and ports are maintained and protected from the ravages of the North Sea has always been in their communal interest. They've had to evolve a culture that answers the need of a dense population in a small land area constantly facing potentially catastrophic challenges from nature.

Simply put: they're waaaay better at working together on things and doing communal problem-solving than Americans are. The only reason to bring up exports is to point out that they're not just people with windmills who spend all their time growing flower bulbs; they more than have the scientific/engineering human capital, technology, wealth, and infrastructure to build and produce successfully for the common good.

[AlittleSalt]

No, what Black Krim posted was what they remembered. I'm in the same boat. I went beyond what this site is supposed to be about. I apologize to you and everyone at Tomatoville.

[gorbelly]

Originally Posted by Jimbotomateo

Thanks guys. I've always been confused about the Dutch and the Danish so I looked on Wiki and another site and I'm certainly not expert on subject but have a tiny bit more knowledge now. Lol. Apparently there's a lot of Americans who are confused on this. Weird.

Geography has never been a strong suit for us as a country. We haven't had much incentive, historically, to care that much, as we're relatively isolated over here across the oceans.

Originally Posted by Jimbotomateo

I found out that twenty percent of people living in the Netherlands are not considered Dutch.

If you mean the ethnicity and not nationality, that would depend on the conversation you were having and who you were having it with. But, yeah, there's diversity there. Different Germanic tribes settled those areas, and some of those identities were retained to different degrees. But they're almost all Dutch in nationality. PRI just had a fascinating podcast on the Frisians. You may find it worth a listen, since you seem to be interested in the topic of the Dutch.
The first cousin of the English language is alive and well in the Netherlands

If you're talking about nationality, there are a lot of non-Dutch national EU citizens living in the country, various expats from around the world, immigrants who are not Dutch citizens, etc., but they don't make up 20%. Rotterdam and Amsterdam have some of the highest percentages of visible minorities as European cities go, but, of course, many of those people are Dutch citizens.

Originally Posted by Jimbotomateo

Holland is a part of the Netherlands. Yada yada.

Another fun fact: the Flemish who live in Belgium speak Dutch, which is one of the three official languages of Belgium. It's often referred to as "Flemish" (Vlaams) but its officially the same language (Dutch/Nederlands). There are some differences and rather different accents, but probably no more than the dfference between RP English and standard midwestern American English. Dutch is also spoken in Suriname and, of course, Dutch territories in the Caribbean. Afrikaans, the language of the Boers in South Africa, is a daughter language of Dutch and still mutually intelligible with modern Dutch.

Originally Posted by Jimbotomateo

Now who wears wooden shoes? Lol. Dutch or Danes.

Actually, errrrbody wears wooden shoes, or rather, many cultures have wooden shoes as part of their traditional costumes. But it's more associated with the Dutch than with the Danes.

But then again, this is the Internet, so maybe it's all lies.

[Jimbotomateo]

There are country's, not U.S., where the engineers and workers are performing almost impossible building tasks. Bridges that are so daunting in their complexity that only a handful of people understand how to construct them. There's a huge earthboring machine that one company alone understands how to set up. When it needs repair they have to call in special welder from South Africa or someplace if I remember right. These dudes are only welders capable of this particular kind of work.

[gorbelly]

Originally Posted by AlittleSalt

No, what Black Krim posted was what they remembered.

Perhaps what you guys are remembering is that Netherlands has frequently been the #1 exporter of cut flowers and one of the top exporters of tulips in the world. But that in no way means their top export is flowers or that their economy is in any way dominated by flowers.

This is because their economy is very large, and, though they produce a LOT of flowers for export, it's still only a small part of their economy.

For example, the US is the top food exporter in the world. But food is nowhere near the top of what we export. This is because we produce a @#$^% ton of food and export a LOT of it. But our economy is huge, and we export way more in other things like machinery, vehicles, fuels, etc.

Conversely, Kiribati's #1 export is frozen fish fillets. But they are nowhere near the top exporters of frozen fish fillets. China is #1 on this. But they're the largest export economy on earth, and all foodstuffs make up < 2% of their exports (their top export is electronics).

[Jimbotomateo]

Thank you Gorbelly. Seems like I read somewhere that the Dutch and Flemish peoples were expert shipbuilders waaaaay back in the day. I think people were sailing around the world a lot earlier than is commonly thought.

[Jimbotomateo]

A lot of the farms in San Joaquin Valley I remember as a kid are now housing tracts. The children of the original farmers weren't interested in farming and the land brought more money as real estate ventures.

[kurt]

What ever happened to keeping these posts to minimum,short concise and intelligible not long rambling drawn out let's talk in a circle so we can enjoy our own bs?Jeezo Weezo I can hear the double thumb google qwerty tapping songs all the way here in one of the last bastions of sanity (Everglades City Fl.)So my remedy is to (as a old school poster here) SOB....scroll on by or hit the triangle.Maybe reading the forum rules and maybe the sentence atalicized at the top of the page.I prefer the SOB scheme.

[Jimbotomateo]

My father had good friend who was Dairyman and actually wore the wooden shoes to work in . Guess he was hardcore or old school.

[gorbelly]

Originally Posted by kurt

What ever happened to keeping these posts to minimum,short concise and intelligible not long rambling drawn out let's talk in a circle so we can enjoy our own bs?Jeezo Weezo I can hear the double thumb google qwerty tapping songs all the way here in one of the last bastions of sanity (Everglades City Fl.)So my remedy is to (as a old school poster here) SOB....scroll on by or hit the triangle.Maybe reading the forum rules and maybe the sentence atalicized at the top of the page.I prefer the SOB scheme.

Since the ReGen community idea isn't about tomatoes, it probably should have gone in 2cents worth.

Who do I contact to see whether it can be moved?

When I encounter stuff that I don't want to discuss or read about, I stop reading. Maybe you will find that tip helpful!