Is this little thing really what's destroyed my gardens?

[z_willus_d]

Yep, I actually purchased an $80 container of it through Amazon to help with thrips. I've sprayed it every week for about a month now, and I must say I've been somewhat nonplussed as to what to make of it. I haven't really seen a decrease in the thips population (not nearly so as much as when I spray the Spinosad). I also was spraying this product over the period of time this "yellowing" issue has blasted through into the stratosphere. So maybe things would have been worse had I not used it, or maybe I'm counter-acting the bacteria with some of the products I'm spraying. I did find a really nice write up on tank mixing that the Mycotrol folks support. They certainly are not game for co-tanking this product with most fungicides. In any case, I've ceased my regular spraying of the product now that I'm so focused on the P.M. problem. If I can't isolate at least one infected thrips or bug, I think I might try and return the product. I suppose the product might work better for someone under a less intensive situation.

Thanks for posting.
-naysen

[Paradajz]

hi, N.,

i see you are still on the crusade against P.M., and using some unconventional systemic weapon now...
if you still need a cure for the verticillium you got there ( but only for the next season unfortunately ) i'll be glad to recommend some

br

[z_willus_d]

Well, the human capacity for denial is an impressive thing. I don't feel I can cope with a crazy infestation of mutant hot-CA-valley type Verticillium, so I latch on to the problem I might have a chance to contend against. P.M. should be a simple adversary when compared to a nematode that I can't isolate, or see, that apparently exists in brand new soil of all types and brands, that laughs at my V resistant Maxifort and Beaufort rootstocks, that cares not for hot weather, or for water starvation, for containers or for new raised beds. Yes, that type of opponent I can't fathom what to do about.

Anyway, let's see what this non-deadly "atomic" does for me in the field. I still owe you another round of photos from around the garden. Maybe the ones I provide gave you a false sense of the norm for this affliction. Maybe I led you to believe the V was my enemy here because of the photos that were provided. I'll take more hoping against reason for another outcome.

[Paradajz]

Race 2 can do it as a joke.
Remarkable sense of humor, you definitely got the nerves for an over- achiever with plants. Keeping my fingers sincerely crossed for you

p.s.
drench atomic doses of any beneficial bacteria stuff at your plants if possible, forgot to mention that the phantom doesn't really like a crowd in it's playground

[Heritage]

Naysen, our systemic mildew infections seem to be showing a similar progression. I am curious to see if Ivan agrees.

Daytime temps during the 6 day period ranged from 65F-75F (18C-24C) with one day @ ~85F (29C) and night temps ~55F (13C). Relative humidity was high this week 75-85%.

I sprayed with myclobutanil about 5 days before the first photo.

Steve

[lycoperson]

I read that the University of Arizona uses this to control powderly mildew spread on cucumbers.

Ingredients:

1 gallon of water
1 tablespoon of baking soda
1 tablespoon of vegetable oil
1 tablespoon of dishwashing liquid

Spray weekly to wetting the foliage but avoid runoff from the leaves.

[LDx4]

Steve,

Your plants look positively healthy compared to mine at this point. I've sprayed GreenCure twice now and while the yellowing has slowed on the original plants, more new plants seem to be developing it, in spite of the various other fungicides I've used.

Naysen or Steve, would you mind sharing the brand name of myclobutanil you're using? Is one brand stronger than another? And does it seem to be working? I think that's going to be my next move.

Lyn

[Heritage]

Lyn,

I used Eagle 20EW (1 Tablespoon/ 3 gal) but I neglected to sacrifice one plant as a control so I have no idea how effective it was. Also, I am wavering on my mildew diagnosis, it does seem, in my case, to be systemic. Still, like Naysen, I'm in denial. I keep hoping it is a special So. Cal. version of mildew that only mimics V. and disappears when the weather warms.

Steve

[lycoperson]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

Yep, I actually purchased an $80 container of it through Amazon to help with thrips. I've sprayed it every week for about a month now, and I must say I've been somewhat nonplussed as to what to make of it. I haven't really seen a decrease in the thips population (not nearly so as much as when I spray the Spinosad). I also was spraying this product over the period of time this "yellowing" issue has blasted through into the stratosphere. So maybe things would have been worse had I not used it, or maybe I'm counter-acting the bacteria with some of the products I'm spraying. I did find a really nice write up on tank mixing that the Mycotrol folks support. They certainly are not game for co-tanking this product with most fungicides. In any case, I've ceased my regular spraying of the product now that I'm so focused on the P.M. problem. If I can't isolate at least one infected thrips or bug, I think I might try and return the product. I suppose the product might work better for someone under a less intensive situation.
-naysen

Mycotrol is often used in intensive greenhouse operations.

I doubt thrips are the issue here. I wouldn't expect thrips to manifest as yellowing. I'd expect small brown freckles on otherwise green leaves. To find a thrips (yes the singular of thrips is thrips) hold a piece of white cardboard under a flower truss and knock the flower truss a few times. Thrips will fall onto the white cardboard and are easy to see. They like to hang out in the flowers and eat pollen. They are quite small and cigar shaped.

Thrips are hard to control with sprays because most sprays for food are contact-only and the thrips are hiding deep in the blossoms and have part of their life cycle in the soil. They can also develop resistance to pesticides.

Beneficial insects to control thrips include predatory nematodes and mites. I use Steinernema feltiae and Amblyseius cucumeris. The cucumeris would help with any other bad mites you might have. But they are slow to establish and would be more preventive than curative. Again, I don't think it's your issue.

(And I'm not convinced that powdery mildew is the problem either.)

[LDx4]

Originally Posted by Heritage

Lyn,

I used Eagle 20EW (1 Tablespoon/ 3 gal) but I neglected to sacrifice one plant as a control so I have no idea how effective it was. Also, I am wavering on my mildew diagnosis, it does seem, in my case, to be systemic. Still, like Naysen, I'm in denial. I keep hoping it is a special So. Cal. version of mildew that only mimics V. and disappears when the weather warms.

Steve

Thanks Steve!

For my situation, all I know is that (1) I grow entirely in containers, and this yellowing is so widespread throughout my plants that I have trouble believing that it could be V. (2) I've battled this yellowing problem every year in June/early July and it seems to mysteriously disappear when the summer temps start heating up and the humidity goes down. This year is just worse than usual. (3) I've had cases of V. before, even in containers, and it would take the plant down rapidly. This yearly yellowing situation just presents itself differently than the V. I've seen.

I think I'll stay in the zone of denial for now

Lyn

[Heritage]

Lyn,

I used myclobutanil on my flowers for the 'other' PM and it was very effective. I'm not sure what the "Days-to-Harvest" number is on it for tomato use, but I think it was 14 days for grapes.

Good luck. I hope you get it cleared up soon!

Steve

[Heritage]

Lyn,

oops, I just re-read my Eagle 20EW label and tomatoes aren't listed. Since the label is the law in California, I can't recommend Eagle, but instead recommend 'Spectracide Immunox Multipurpose', or a similar myclobutanil fungicide that is registered for use on tomatoes.

Steve

[z_willus_d]

Let's see, where do I start. I guess I'll go down the line.

Ivan, I'm amazed at how it seem as hard as I work on tomatoes, and gosh darnoodley I work hard at it, they always seem to fight back even harder. I don't know what it is... like some kind of law or universal relationship. It really does bum me out yearly, but then I come back at it with renewed vigor when I hear about some new tactic or stratagem for achieving my goals. I used to think my goal was simply yield and quality, but I have to admit now that I'm almost equally interested in the quest for a healthy plant. I don't enjoy the "hobby" nearly as much when I'm working among, crispy, dead, awful looking plants as when they are lush, green, and everything just works. When the plants are unhealthy, it seem everything suffers. I note that the fruit will be more sickly, and new growth comes up and then rots or dries up dead from the get go. It's just a depressing state of affairs. I want to get through a season with a green, healthy plant. Yep, that's my goal. Oh, and I'd love to find a way to do it "organically."

Steve, I agree your progression does follow a similar trajectory to my own, though your plant seems much healthier in general (as a whole), even enough to show that small tomato come to early fruition in the upper right corner of the photos. Thanks for posting the sequence. It's great data!

Lyco, very cool with the animation on my jpegs. I like it. All that you write on thrips is true. You can trust that I am well aware of everything you wrote. I've been obsessed with thrips for two years now. I realize that the title of this thread would suggest that I believe thrips to be the cause of my issues, but that was just a question that started the thread over a year back. I'm beyond the thrips as relates to what we're dealing with here. I'm not yet beyond the possibility that it is one of the strains of Powdery Mildew, though I'm getting there slowly and sadly.

Lyn, I'm not using the Eagle 20W that Heritage is using, as I found it did not list for use on vegetables. That's too bad too, since it's far cheaper than the Rally 40WSP product that I'm using, which is listed for tomatoes and various other edibles. You can read about it here:
http://www.keystonepestsolutions.com...unces-219.html

BTW, it states that you can harvest the day of spraying, though I certainly will not.

I guess the only other thing I have to report is a totally self inflicted disaster that occurred yesterday when I sprayed the myclobutanil. I tank mixed with a pyrethren concentrate product (http://www.domyownpestcontrol.com/ev...te-p-1875.html) and safer brand insecticidal soap (quarter strength). Now I had used those two products together once before, but with a full strength on the insecticidal soap; I also added some pH down product to lower the pH of the solution per the instructions for the pyrethren product. Well, when I used the pyrethren and safer soap together before, I managed to burn most of my plants (yes, I sprayed in the evening), especially the new growth and flowers. It took a couple weeks for the plants to grow out of the crispy death I laid upon them. At the time, I figured I must have either blown it by using full strength soap or the acid mix was off.

Well, I hadn't used those two products together again until yesterday. I had used the Safer soap in small quantities as a spreader/sticker sort of amendment, but with other products. Now I know that there is something off with the combination of evergreen-pyrethrum-concentrate and that safer soap. I managed to just wreak havoc on all my vines. New growth across the board is burnt to a crisp (black!) The old growth has this black spotting and where the liquid pooled in a few cases on potato leaves (and pepper leaves), it looks like a pool of acid was applied. I feel miserable about this self-inflicted slaughter. I want to burn the safer soap, since it seems to have bit me twice now. And I'm the idiot who didn't learn the lesson a month ago the first time it did. Since I was much more assiduous in my spraying this time, I did far more damage. So now I have plants that are going yellow and crispy from the ground up due to ??? and black and crispy from the top down due to my dumb @ss! Ugh, I can't express the annoyance.

Maybe I'll post a pic or two tomorrow since misery always loves to commiserate.

Ivan, just out of curiosity, what were those measures you alluded to for handling V. (I hope they don't involve fumigation equipment.) I think my mind is shifting out of this season and into next. Wow, how it feels like history repeating here. On a good note, I was able to make some mighty fine salsa verde with my early tomatillo harvest. Superb stuff!

-naysen

[dice]

Could you test the Safer insecticidal soap on some other kind
of plant that you have no particular investment in (a weed)?
Just to see if it does the same thing to the foliage that you see
on your tomato plants? Maybe pick another weed and try just
the permethrin? (For completeness, pick a third weed and apply
the same mix that you sprayed your garden with.)

Maybe you can eliminate some variables this way (is it one, the other,
or both together that damaged your crop).

You might also mix up some of the pH down alone (without any of
the soaps, insecticides, or fungicides) and pick a victim weed to try
that on.

You might have a product recommended for this from a garden
supply, but the "pH down" I have seen are hot tub products. I would
not be surprised if one or more of them could produce some kind
of chemical burn on plants.

edit:
For anyone else wondering how this thread got from thrips to
fungicides, the original problem was blossom drop, and Naysen
was wondering if thrips could cause that. While discussing that,
this new problem emerged that causes progressive loss of foliage
(may be a form of mildew, etc).

[Master_Gardener]

I'm not a bug guy, but I have a 10X loop to carry in the garden specifically to help ID small critters. Perhaps others can see them better than I can. I've seen loops up to 30X but more power is not necessarily better. Resolution and clarity is what you want. Details are important.

I can't really help when I get a picture from someone and they want to know what a '.' is.

The part of the plant on which you found them is also important to help identify them.

Russel