Is this little thing really what's destroyed my gardens?

[z_willus_d]

Originally Posted by dice

Could you test the Safer insecticidal soap on some other kind
of plant that you have no particular investment in (a weed)?
Just to see if it does the same thing to the foliage that you see
on your tomato plants? Maybe pick another weed and try just
the permethrin? (For completeness, pick a third weed and apply
the same mix that you sprayed your garden with.)

Maybe you can eliminate some variables this way (it is one, the other,
or both together that damaged your crop).

You might also mix up some of the pH down alone (without any of
the soaps, insecticides, or fungicides) and pick a victim weed to try
that on.

You might have a product recommended for this from a garden
supply, but the "pH down" I have seen are hot tub products. I would
not be surprised if one or more of them could produce some kind
of chemical burn on plants.

Hi Dice, all good thoughts, but I feel as though I've already filled out the matrix. I always spray at dusk, and while the next day temperature and nighttime temps may vary (as well wind conditions), I'm hopeful those variables are secondary concerns.

Here's what I've done (not everything):

evergreen-pyrethrum-concentrate (full strength), Safer Insecticidal Soap (full strength), Spreader/Sticker (half strength), pH down to correct to ~6pH (used meter)
--> Dried out new foliage, some black spotting/pooling on old foliage

evergreen-pyrethrum-concentrate (full strength), Safer Insecticidal Soap (quarter strength), Spreader/Sticker (half strength), Rally 40WSP (min recommended dosage)
--> Fried 90% of new foliage dead and to a crisp, black; streaks and spotting/pooling on older, larger leaves; where drops pooled on fruit created dark, indented pockmarks


Safer Insecticidal Soap (quarter strength), Spinosad (full strength)
-->No obvious effect,


Safer Insecticidal Soap (quarter strength)
--> No obvious effect

I suppose I could fill-in the matrix with more data. I know that oil products mixed with soap can become caustic to a plant, though I haven't sprayed (TMK) an oil product for some time now, in anticipation of using sulfur. I'll try to post some pics of the damage later.

Thanks,
Naysen

[z_willus_d]

Lyco, I forgot to comment in my long post last night that Sodium Bicarbonate (Baking Soda) is the standard, home remedy for powdery mildew, however there have been a number of studies suggesting it has limited effect on moderate to intense infestations. The similar class of chemical suggested is Potassium Bicarbonate (e.g. GreenCure), which is one of the products I have tried.
Thanks,
Naysen

[z_willus_d]

Russel, agreed. This past year I've purchased several implements at various cost and magnifications. The 40x (probably closer to 25x) hand microscope is good for getting in close, but it's a bit unwieldy. I found a simple hand loupe to be more portable. I have other posts where I've attached pictures that my phone camera captured through the magnifiers. They come out rather clean.
-naysen

[lycoperson]

Oh Naysen, that is so sad to read. If the stems are green then there's a good chance the plants will grow more leaves and fruits.

They say there's only 40 things you need to know to grow a great tomato crop. Problem is, you only learn a few things each year!

I do see phytotoxicity with some formulations of pyrethrins, but I haven't seen it with the 5.0 that you're using. I also haven't seen a lot of phyto caused by safer soap. What did you use to measure the pH of the final spray solution? What was the acid you used to adjust pH?

The real lesson here is that if you're applying a new spray or fertilizer, do it on one plant and wait 3 days, no matter how sure you are that it will be okay. Observe what happens to that plant. If it's good after 3 days, then you're probably safe to apply to the entire crop. You can't store the spray for 3 days though, so you will need to make up a new batch following the same recipe.

We get eager to fix the problem and sometimes the spray solution is a problem itself. It takes a lot of discipline not to get in there right away and spray our latest idea over the entire crop.

[Heritage]

Naysen, it is important to use Rally at full (recommended) strength, otherwise you are encouraging a resistance. For the same reason, don't use Rally more than twice in succession. In general, and for the same reason, that is true of most insecticides/fungicides. Also, don't add a spreader/sticker unless the label recommends it. Many of the 'home-gardener' formulations will already have the most effective spreader/sticker included in the formulation, and the addition of others can have undesirable results.

Steve

[Heritage]

Also, Re: Safer Soap: I have no experience with it on tomatoes but I once used it (at recommended strength) to fry dahlias. The 'safer' part of the name doesn't seem to apply to the plant, only the applicator.

Steve

[LDx4]

Steve and Naysen,

Thanks for the additional info on Eagle and Rally. Looks like Eagle is out of the picture now (Steve, I've got bail $ ). The Rally price is a little steep! In my research I found that Eagle has the myclobutanil at a 19% concentration and Immunox only has it at 2%, so I'm wondering how effective the Immunox would even be?

Naysen, I'm so sorry to hear about your fried plants! I used Safer soap earlier this year to "fry" my entire starting crop of pepper plants while trying to get rid of aphids. I ended up losing about 1/3 of them. I think Steve is right -- Safer is not the right name for that stuff!

Lyn

[Heritage]

Originally Posted by LDx4

research I found that Eagle has the myclobutanil at a 19% concentration and Immunox only has it at 2%, so I'm wondering how effective the Immunox would even be?

Lyn

Lyn,

Eagle is diluted at 6oz/100 gal (using grape recommendations), and Innunox is diluted at 1 oz./gal, so I think the concentration of myclobutanil in the applied mixture would be similar in both products.

Thanks, I may take you up on the bail $

Steve

[z_willus_d]

Originally Posted by lycoperson

I do see phytotoxicity with some formulations of pyrethrins, but I haven't seen it with the 5.0 that you're using. I also haven't seen a lot of phyto caused by safer soap. What did you use to measure the pH of the final spray solution? What was the acid you used to adjust pH?

Hi Lyco, I was targeting a pH of 6 for the finished solution. I was using General Hydroponics pH down (it's orange colored). I have a fancy Hana instruments pH Meter for measuring the acidity.

Thanks for commiserating with me.
-n

[z_willus_d]

Originally Posted by Heritage

Naysen, it is important to use Rally at full (recommended) strength, otherwise you are encouraging a resistance. For the same reason, don't use Rally more than twice in succession. In general, and for the same reason, that is true of most insecticides/fungicides. Also, don't add a spreader/sticker unless the label recommends it. Many of the 'home-gardener' formulations will already have the most effective spreader/sticker included in the formulation, and the addition of others can have undesirable results.

Steve

Hi Steve, yep, I've read all about it. The label had a range of concentration to be applied to an acre, so I calculated what that range would be and then made the assumption that 100-Gal would be applied to an acre. Then I divided down for my 4-gal pack. I choose the lower end of the suggested range per the label and my calculations. I don't think this Rally product is meant for the "home-gardener." In fact, it comes in 4-ounce water soluable "baggies" designed for 10+ acre applications (I had to open the baggy up). I read up on studies that used Rally, and most included a spreader-sticker. I think it is recommended.

[z_willus_d]

Originally Posted by LDx4

Naysen, I'm so sorry to hear about your fried plants! I used Safer soap earlier this year to "fry" my entire starting crop of pepper plants while trying to get rid of aphids. I ended up losing about 1/3 of them. I think Steve is right -- Safer is not the right name for that stuff!
Lyn

Hi Lyn, it sounds like we're building up a pattern. The other thing I hate about that Safer soap is it tends to build up a residue in the tank mixer. It smells lousy, so I know it's there by the smell alone.

Hey, depending on how much you need (and assuming it's not illegal), I could probably mail you some of the Rally I purchased. I should have far more than I will need for years to come. Just PM me if you're interested.
-naysen

[Heritage]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

Hi Steve, yep, I've read all about it. The label had a range of concentration to be applied to an acre, so I calculated what that range would be and then made the assumption that 100-Gal would be applied to an acre. Then I divided down for my 4-gal pack. I choose the lower end of the suggested range per the label and my calculations. I don't think this Rally product is meant for the "home-gardener." In fact, it comes in 4-ounce water soluable "baggies" designed for 10+ acre applications (I had to open the baggy up). I read up on studies that used Rally, and most included a spreader-sticker. I think it is recommended.

Naysen, my comment on the spreader/sticker was intended to be more of a general recommendation for adding spreader/stickers and not specific to your case. (Unless your pyrethrum formulation already contains a spreader/sticker) My comment on Rally concentration was based on your comment above where you say you used Rally at half-strength. Again, a general warning for a public forum. I know you do your homework more than most commercial growers (myself included, since I recommended Eagle) but I like to stress/repeat important points I have learned (the hard way).

Steve

[z_willus_d]

Understood Steve- I appreciate everything you've done here and the attention to detail you've exhibited in your responses. I should probably amend my above statement on Rally concentration from "half-strength" to something like "low-end of recommended concentration." In fact, I think I'll do that now. Just to round out this side-track down how to fry your plants with Safer insecticidal soap, here are few pics I snapped this morning of the damage. It's pervasive. I hope the plants can grow out of it, as they did once before. As lyco pointed out, there is a lesson to learn in patience/prudence and showing good judgment on spraying new products. Unfortunately, in my case, I should have already learned that lesson the hard way. It just didn't stick the first time.

Now back to Powdery Mildew or be it V concerns.
-naysen

ps. none of the damage I show in the pics here was apparent the day before spraying. It's all new and unrelated to P.M., V., viruses, bacteria, etc.

[beeman]

Originally Posted by z_willus_d

Now back to Powdery Mildew or be it V concerns.
-naysen

Please don't 'bite my head off' for suggesting the following, but it strikes me there is something drastically wrong here, I have followed this post from the beginning.

Have you considered that all the spraying you have done, with some pretty fierce chemicals, might have killed off any beneficial bacteria.

It seems to me we need good guys to help combat the bad and ugly. We know the plants are dependant on beneficial bacteria in the soil to produce the sugars etc that the plants need to stay healthy. Is it possible you have destroyed most if not all the 'good guys', leading to an endless parade of 'bad guys'?

I do question 'Bills' bleach spray, surely he must be killing off a great deal of his soil bacteria, which doesn't make any sense to me.

I do know, where I live, that things are different, but my approach is totally different. Early in the spring I spray to supply the 'good guys' to all my planting, including all my berries and fruit trees. I do not get anything like the problems you do, a few aphids and that's it.

This year we've had endless wet, dull, warm weather, ideal for fungus etc, but to date nothing.

It's too late this year, but how about next year?

I use Biotamax. In a 5 gallon pail, add 1/2 cup molasses and brew with an air stone for at least 24/48 hours. My microscope tells me it's alive with bacteria when I spray or soil drench, and the difference in the plants is amazing, the yellowing disappears and bright green results, plus the plants look stronger.

[Paradajz]

hi, N.,

sorry to hear about the incident.
BTW, did you know that plants generally have very well developed systems of actions to adjust their environment to their favor, not just the other way around? e.g., a tomato plant has an excellent symbiotic system of double action with some of it's fungal root subtenants to regulate the soil PH to the exact level suitable for the moment. troubles occur when the environment is stronger and more aggressive though.
something very similar may happen with plant's leafs, especially if certain temperature conditions, ammonium form of nitrogen and unstable solutions are involved in the equation

it will grow out of it, if you want to speed it up a bit some mild vermicast tea would come handy.
i'll see to post an advice for you and Steve a bit later.

br,
ivan

p.s.
oh, i know so very well what you were talking about when you'd mentioned a wish for a healthy plant