Recommended mix for one of Ray's SWCs

[JohnMich]

I'm not getting answers to my request for info about a 5:1:1 (must be wrong!? ) mix so I thought I better rephrase the question.

What is the recommended starter mix for a newbie in one of Ray's SWCs?

I want to grow tomatoes and herbs in particular.
We are on the Gold Coast, Queensland, Oz and the weather equates to Hawaii (beautiful one day, perfect the next!)

Any advice would be appreciated

[rnewste]

John,

What I use is a product called MiracleGro Potting Mix (NOT Potting SOIL). This particular brand may not be available in Australia - - but I am sure you can purchase something of similar content.



Keep in mind that this Potting Mix contains trace elements of fertilizer, and you will need to add additional. I have found this product called Tomato-tone to be quite effective:



Again, you may not be able to get this product shipped into Australia, but something similar is certainly available in your area. In addition to the N-P-K ratios, pay attention to the other elements contained in Tomato-tone that encourage good tomato growth.

Ray

[JohnMich]

Thanks Ray the pic of the TomatoTone bag was very useful. It will be simple to do a match up.
The soilless mix is still a bit of a puzzle. I had the idea that a mix of 5 pinebark fines, 1 peatmoss and 1 perlite was the go but can't get confirmation. What are your ideas, please?
Believe it or not here on the Gold coast we have business that will make up mixes for you as small as 18 cu.ft. about 16 standard bags. For any Aussies reading its Greenfingers, Nerang and they have 5* reputation.
So the formula is all I need now!

[rnewste]

John,

I have read on other Forums that a one/third mix of perlite, plus your other ingredients (minus the pine bark) is what they use. Sorry, but I wish I could be more informative on the self-mix, but I just buy the commercial Miracle-gro as I focus on the other aspects of the EarthTainer.

Ray

[JohnMich]

Hi Ray! I'm a bit puzzled about the 1/3 mix without the pine bark because that only leaves perlite and peat - anyway nothing ventured nothing gained so I email Scotts Australia who sell Miracle-Gro products but not PMs, dropped your name as guru and asked them what in Oz was close to their US product and if they didn't know that well what was in the US mix!!?? They can only tell me to take a running jump! Will report back.
John

[dice]

The original "Cornell Mix" was 1/2 peat moss, 1/2 perlite.
Not much to it, plenty of air space. The one thing you want to
avoid is a heavy, dense mix that lacks large pore air space.
These days, you can probably replace the peat with coir (goes
from dry to wet a lot faster than peat and may need less pH
adjustment). Both of these ingredients are basically
nutrient-free as far as your average plant is concerned, so you
can adjust what you are feeding the plants fairly accurately
with fertilizers.

Anything beyond that (bark fines, leaf mold, compost,
lime to adjust pH, wetting agent, etc) is just fine tuning.
Finely screened leaf mold and compost contribute a steady,
modest supply of nutrition, but they may break down to
(basically useless) silt within a year in a warm climate and
lose any air space that they may have contributed. Bark fines,
rice hulls, peat moss, and coir take longer to break down completely.

Edit:

I was thinking that peat moss and perlite probably have to be
imported in Australia, but coir and rice hulls may be produced
locally. You could use half coir, half rice hulls and get a close
approximation of Cornell mix without the need for a wetting
agent, which is used in commercial container mix to overcome
the tendency of peat moss in particular and to some extent bark
to shed water instead of absorbing it. (Coir absorbs water more
easily.)

Rice hulls are big enough and break down slowly enough to function
comparably to perlite in a container mix, at least over the first few years
of use (they do eventually break down to silt, but not quickly). Maybe
ask the vendor to mix some up at those proportions and test the pH,
then if necessary add enough lime to bring it up to 6.5-7.0 pH.

You *really* want salt-free coir here, too. (Some fly-by-night vendors
manufacture it from coconut hulls without washing them first.) If
using coir, I would ask the custom container mix vendor if it has been
checked for that before using it.

[JohnMich]

Well it only took two months for their Australian Customer Service Team to come good but at last I got something useful.
They don't sell the US mix in Australia (Duh! Really?) but they do know that it has a significant component of what they call coir pith which to quote them "helps with moisture control in the mix".
So Dice you were spot on, thank you. And Ray that's the missing part of the mix based on your info.
For the benefit of any Aussies reading they sell Osmocote Potting Mix which is coir pith based so I think I will try that at this stage instead of getting a special mix.
Thanks all for your help.
John

[Polar_Lace]

Ray,

I found the picture of the 2 Tomato Tones in your photobucket pics

In which thread did you post them?
Could you post a link to it for me?

Thank you,

~* Robin

[JohnMich]

G'day Robin

Will this do?

Regards, John

[GardenJedi]

It was a $20 savings for me to make my own mix, so I am trying 7:2:1 (peat:perlite:vermiculite). Not sure if those 3 are available in Australia. The mix looks just like Miracle Gro, so I am hopeful making my own was truly a savings.

[Polar_Lace]

Hi GardenJedi!

Nice to meet you, welcome aboard the Starship um... Tomato Planet...Tomatoville!

~* Robin

[DennisM]

I ordered the Tomato-Tone recommended by Ray for the EarthTainer but instead of the 4-7-10 ratio shown on the old package, Tomato-tone changed the ratio to 3-4-6. How will this affect my tomatoes, and do I have to do anything differently?

On a separate note, I just purchased Dr. Carolyn Male's book, "100 Heirloom Tomatoes for the American Garden." I am really enjoying the book.

Dennis

[dice]

ordered the Tomato-Tone recommended by Ray for the EarthTainer but instead of the 4-7-10 ratio shown on the old package, Tomato-tone changed the ratio to 3-4-6. How will this affect my tomatoes, and do I have to do anything differently?

I would not do anything differently. Espoma claimed that the
microbes they added to it would compensate for the lower
N-P-K percentages (makes sense in soil; I don't know if container
mix would contain any additional nutrient sources that the
microbes could make available, but they might enhance uptake
of what is there in the 3-4-6). At most I might add a tablespoon
of kelp meal for each handful of the new Tomato-Tone if I had
plenty of kelp meal on hand.

Ray had a side-by-side comparison of the old and new mixes
scheduled. Other people may be doing that comparison, too.
Many people do not do exact measurements, anyway, when
adding the mix to a container. I use "handfuls", for example,
when measuring fertilizer out. So how big is my hand compared
to anyone else's hand? The 3-4-6 still looks like an appropriate
ratio for tomatoes.

[DennisM]

Thanks for the reply. I am a long way from the PNW. I used to live and work in Olympia for many years. My last job was in Bremerton. Now I live in Iron River, Michigan in zone 4. Quite a big difference in gardening.

Dennis

[dice]

We could use a little of your summer heat. (I get a lot of
mid-season tomatoes trying to ripen their crop in September
rains most years.)

The point about the inexact measurements is that if you
use a cup of 4-7-10, and a cup and a third or whatever
of 3-4-6, how is that different? Or I might have a cup of
either in one container and a cup-and-a-half of the same
stuff in the next and not notice much difference in the
plants (both amounts were sufficient and neither was
excessive, even if one was a little more richly endowed
than the other).

I make adjustments during the season with water-soluble
fertilizers as necessary, depending on how the plants seem
to be growing, so I don't sweat exact measurements or exact
N-P-K percentages when setting up a container or planting
bed. The difference between, say, 3-4-6 and 16-16-16 is going
to be pretty obvious and require adjustments in how much
I might use initially, but the difference between 3-4-6 and
4-7-10, not necessarily. It can easily be lost in the noise
of how much incidental nutrition is already in the soil or
container mix, and it is nothing that a mid-season adjustment
with a soluble fertilizer can't fix anyway.

Soils and container mixes with mycorhizzae and other
beneficial microbes justify somewhat different nutrient
amendments than sterile soils. High phosphorus levels inhibit
the development of mycorhizzae, so that is to be avoided.
If you only have half or less of the phosphorus added, and
a little less nitrogen and potassium, but you end up with a root
system that is 100% more efficient at delivering nutrients
to the plant (because it has all of these little microbial and
fungal helpers living on the root system, extending its reach
and converting previously insoluble compounds to something
that the plant can absorb), have you really lost anything?

(Bulk fertilizer prices have been way up, which is a justification
to Espoma for reducing their N-P-K percentages and adding
some microbe spores to compensate. They claimed that the
change from 5-lb to 4-lb bags was to use a uniform bag size
for more products, reducing their cost of production. Time
will tell how well this all works, as side-by-side comparison
results of the old and new formulations come in.)

Another reason not to worry much about this is how well
Garden-Tone (4-6-6) worked as a substitute in the past
when people who wanted Tomato-Tone could not find it
on local store shelves, so bought Garden-Tone and used
that instead. (Garden-Tone has also changed, by the way,
down to 3-4-4 plus microbes.)

An occasional tablespoon of unsulfured molasses in the
water reservoir, say every 2-4 weeks during fruit set, would
give them a nice potassium boost and some additional
minerals (molasses has around 5% potassium). The stuff
is kind of thick and gooey, so dissolving it in a pint of warm
water first makes this adjustment more convenient.