"Illegal" propagation

[sandrina2]

I'm a brand new member, but I've grown tomatoes for more years than I care to remember.
My question: I've always wondered, is it against the law to save seeds from protected varieties like Santa Sweet and Campari for planting in my home garden?

sandrina2 in Connecticut

[beeman]

Why who's to know? Unless you tell someone!

[J Peazy]

I have wondered this myself. How do you patent a tomato?

I'm going to patent grass and sue all of my neighbors! I'll be rich.

I get that a lot of R&D goes into modern hybrids. A lot of R&D went into the varieties of which that hybrid's lineage cosists. Some by backyard gardeners. Who owes whom?

[travis]

What I'm responding to here is strictly tomatoes: I don't think it's illegal to save seeds from hybrids and PVP tomatoes if you only regrow them in your own garden for your own use or as a hobby.

What I'm saying does not apply to certain corn, soybean, and other grain or sugar cultivars where Monsanto has patented the germplasm and has the legal ability to pursue you in court for unauthorized or unpermitted use of their patented germplasm.

But if you use patented tomato seeds, pollen, clones, etc. for commercial profit, I believe you possibly are subject to civil or legal action by the breeder/vendor.

[Jeannine Anne]

I grow Rose de Roscoff onions which are protected to a very small area of France, does that make me a crook.. seeds are not available for sale, you have to get the onions , regrow them and save the seeds.

What about the Pepperdew?

Interesting topic, I shall watch with interest.

XX Jeannine

[travis]

Jeannine, I really think you can find the answers by Googling the release notices of the particular cultivars you want to grow in your garden from saved or "scavanged" seeds and clones.

[DiggingDogFarm]

I'm pretty sure that neither of those tomatoes are PVP, but I'm sure the names are trademarked.
Obviously one can't legally violate the trademark in anyway by using the name.

Anyway, for what it's worth, it is perfectly legal to collect and save seed for a PVP variety for one's one future planting.

"Can growers save their own seed if they are growing a PVP protected variety? Yes. Growers can collect and save the seed from a PVP protected variety for their own future planting without violation of the law. Growers may not sell PVP seed without permission from the PVP holder."

http://cropandsoil.oregonstate.edu/cereals/PVP/pvp.htm

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/7/...3----000-.html

~Dig

[Jeannine Anne]

Travis, thank you.I do know I can't sell them but am unsure if I can grow them XX Jeannine

[Stepheninky]

To my knowledge, Campari, is a copy write and trade mark that if you read the site is applied to the tomatoes name and the specific packaging as a whole. People that have regrown it for their own personal use says that the shape, color, size, and taste of the tomatoes seem to be the same. So not even sure it is even a hybrid or an OP. What gets me is the way they word the trade mark and copy write information. So I think as long as you are not selling or marketing the tomato,( Though possibly use of the name could be a trade mark violation,) that any laws would be in violation.

To me it would make sense for them to use an OP variety and call it Campari from a business stand point. Any tomatoes that do not make the quality standard could then be used as seed stock. So free seed verses the money and effort needed to grow and cross the parent plants for the hybrid seed or purchasing the hybrid seed. Though that is all just speculation.

[Chris_NH]

To be overly concerned with some words strangers have written down on pieces of paper seems silly. So long as you're not harming or threatening another person let your conscience be free.

[Wi-sunflower]

Many years ago I was selling seed on eBay that I had saved from Moulin Rouge sunflower seeds.

After a while I got an email from a guy in England that claimed he created Moulin Rouge and what I was selling was not Moulin Rouge and needed to stop using the name. He claimed he was getting complaints about seed not being true.

Well Moulin Rouge is not a PVP variety but he claimed something else. Just to shut him up I changed the name I used to Pazhar, which is my attempt at "Firey " in Russian. (I had a Ukrainian worker at the time and had to learn a bit of Russian to communicate)

He was right in that the seeds weren't totally "true to type", but I doubt the complaints he got came from my seeds. I had only sold less than 50 small 100 seed packs in maybe 2 years offering them. The seeds I grew them from came from a well respected catalog. Moulin Rouge is supposed to be a "pollen free" type yet the seeds I got made seed so definitely had pollen. Also Moulin is supposed to be a dark red/black and was for only about 80% of the seed I got.

While he probably was right in his assertions, he contacted me directly not thru a lawyer. He had more problems than my seeds and I told him about where I got my seeds.

Yes there is a lot of time and energy invested in "creating" a new variety of anything. And most of us appreciate a new great variety. But if you aren't ready to see your variety EVERYWHERE, get out of breeding. Once the seeds are "out there", they are out there. You can't totally control how the seeds are used.

I knew a company that tried to control EVERYTHING. They had a special cantaloupe they ONLY sold cut in 1/2 so they could get the seeds out so no one would be able to grow from the seeds in the melon. That was more than 20 years ago and only lasted a couple of years in a very regional part of the country. Too much of a hassle.

Carol

[Keiththibodeaux]

Seems from a hybrid would not likely come true anyway, so who knows what you are growing, right?

[sandrina2]

Originally Posted by Keiththibodeaux

Seems from a hybrid would not likely come true anyway, so who knows what you are growing, right?

I tried Santa Sweet seeds saved from tomatoes I bought at the supermarket last year, and they came true. I don't think I'll try second generation, though. This year I've planted Campari, and from what I've read from posts elsewhere they do come true. Well, I guess I'll find out soon enough!!

sandrina2 in Connecticut

[travis]

The Campari I tried to grow from seed had pithy or hard white cores. Could be result of hot Southern field conditions compared to controlled greenhouse climates in Canada.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by sandrina2

I tried Santa Sweet seeds saved from tomatoes I bought at the supermarket last year, and they came true. I don't think I'll try second generation, though. This year I've planted Campari, and from what I've read from posts elsewhere they do come true. Well, I guess I'll find out soon enough!!

sandrina2 in Connecticut

Santa F1 is a hybrid but saved F2 seeds do come true on 99/100 plants, the off type being oval, not grape shaped, and having a lower brix level ( soluble sugars) than the grape ones.

The info above info from Andrew Chu who was the first to make grape tomatoes popular with Santa F1 which was bred by the Known-You seed company in Taiwan.

Andrew, a wonderful fellow, was forced out by the Procacci Bros of Philadelphia and thus no seeds for Santa F1 can now be sold in the US and they control the sale of Santa Sweets. Long story I'm not up to telling, but folks are on the F6 and F7 generation now and all is stable and has been since the get go.

I think there's another thread or post here at Tville about those who have grown out Camapari, but honestly, I don't remember what was said.

Some are also growing Mountain Magic F1, which is a campari type and grows better outside, so it's said, than the Camparis which are greenhouse grown. I happen to like MM F1 very very much as well as Smarty F1 which is a grape tomato bred by the same person, Dr. Randy Gardner of NCSU, and I offered seeds for both of them a couple of years ago here in my annual seed offer, seeds from Dr. Gardner with his permission.