Damping Off

[troad]

RSG,
As I said in Carolyn's thread "Germination/Updates(2012); My Seed Offer"

Good advice regarding plastic bags etc. with heat mats.
Usually I just put started seeds on top of the refrigerator. It is warmer than room temperature by a little. No problems. Usually get sprouts in 6 or 7 days.
Using the heat mat this year I had a Brandywine Croatia (thank you Ray N) sprout in 2 days.
Rushed plants into the cooler garage as some were getting leggy. Things went downhill from there. Interesting that some of the PL plants were not affected very much. Some of the PL types like Ben Gantz went down just as quick as some of the others. The best survivors are Stump of the World X Bear Claw crosses.

I have several plants that are in various stages of decline. I sorted them from least to most damage. And have sprayed all with a 10 to 1 mix of peroxide and water.
It appears to have helped and this morning I found 2 of the most damaged plants to have given up. The rest seem to look as they were when I sorted them Friday.

I need some advice on keeping the plants or starting over. Have the damaged plants been set back to much or do I hang on and let these tough little plants show their durability? I keep thinking the potting mix maybe part of the problem but I have never had this happen before. The plants have their root structure so I keep thinking they will make it now.
Any ideas?

Len

[lakelady]

Last year I had problems with damping off and once I applied the peroxide and water and then even some actinovate, most recovered and i was able to put them out. The San Marzano's produced like crazy all summer in spite of their shaky start. I wonder if it depends on how hardy the variety is to begin with .

I never had any luck with the zip baggie method, all I would get is fuzzy growth on the seeds so I just put them in jiffymix, water and cover with the dome on heat until they sprout.

[b54red]

Definitely start some more seed now. Even if you have stopped the damping off it seems to affect the growth rate for a while after it hits them. It's like they need a little time to recover before they start growing again. Sometimes you will find that the first signs of damping off will not be your last problem with it. It does appear that some of the hardier varieties that perform well in my garden are also able to withstand the effects of damping off better than others. In my first planting way back in December only one Cowlicks and a couple of Spudakees survived out of over 300 seedlings. In my second planting most of my black varieties did well. Others that were able to survive damping off were Stump of the World, Lumpy Red, EPB, Moreton, Tarasenko-6, Hege German Pink, Linnies Oxheart, Old Virginia, and Marianna's Peace.

[peebee]

This year I have almost 100 seedlings and thankfully only a handful showed signs of damping off. This time, I just plucked the plant off at the point where it was skinny (the classic sign of it starting) and replanted the top in new mix, watered lightly, and kept it in the shade. It's been 5 days, and none are wilting or showing any signs of stress.
How long should I wait before putting them under lights or in a sunny window? Or will they eventually die as they are too young to form new roots? I just tried it for the heck of it, as I planted so many in the event something like this might happen.

[Tracydr]

I'm starting some very slow to germinate habanero and native type peppers right now and was getting some mold growth on top. Doesn't help that I have to use a heat mat. I sprinkled with cinnamon, misted with chamomile tea and put them outside in the warm sun all afternoon with a light breeze. All the mold was gone and several more had germinated when I brought them back in. There were a few looking weak and they look much better now.

[troad]

Thanks for the replies.

It appears most of the plants have survived. Now to see which can recover. The tray with the most damaged looking seedlings will probably be a waste but I won't throw them out yet.

B54 I have started some more seeds and plan to keep the peroxide handy. Interesting to note that your list contains some of the same survivors I have. Namely Moreton, Hege German Pink and a similar Stump X Bear Claw cross that I am growing. I wonder if it is coincidence or if there is a gene they have that other tomatoes need?
peebee I don't have a clue if yours will survive. I am staying with mine since the seedlings have their roots intact. If you have backup plants it can't hurt to see what happens. Sounds encouraging that they are still holding on after 5 days. My sick plants dropped practically overnight.
Tracy try some peroxide if you run out of the cinnamon and tea.
Good luck to everyone.
Len

[Tracydr]

Thanks Troad. Will do. I have loads of cinnamon and chamomile. I'd have to go to the store for peroxide.

[dice]

I use the hydrogen peroxide solution when starting off. If I am sprouting
seeds on coffee filters in open plastic bags, I moisten the coffee filters with
the hydrogen peroxide solution. If I am sprouting seeds in seed-starting
cells, I moisten the coir (or other seed-starting mix) with the hydrogen
peroxide solution. I continue to use that solution to water seedlings until
they are ready to pot up into 3" pots. The idea is to catch damping off
fungus as soon as it sprouts from spores or whatever, before it can infect
seedlings (the seeds have not actually sprouted at first, but the fungus
probably has if spores are present).

Trying to get them to recover after they have been infected is
considerably more difficult than killing the fungus before it can infect
them.

This year as I was sprouting seeds, I used the hydrogen peroxide, and as
far as I can tell none of the tomato seeds have damped off (at least none
that actually showed some green growth above the soil line.) At the same
time, I found this bag of little seeds among my seed-starting stuff, and
I did not know what they were exactly. So I sprinkled a few dozen in
the top of a 4" round pot with seed-starting mix (mix of coir, some
SunGro LG3 that has been sitting around for a couple of years, some
peat moss, some recycled seed-starting mix from last year, etc, all
mixed up together), and I watered it with just water, to find out what
kind of seeds they were (clover or alfalfa, as it turned out). They sprouted
fairly quickly, 3 to 5 days, and within a couple of days 90%+ of them
damped off. (I checked the pot with a moisture meter, it was fine, middle
of the range.) Two of the mystery seeds sprouts in that pot have survived
out of 30 to 50 that sprouted initially.

So the hydrogen peroxide solution does make a difference, but it works
a lot better if you use it early, before the seeds have ever sprouted.
Once they have been infected, it may not be enough, depending on
exactly which damping off fungus the plants are infected by.

(Note: if you seem to have something like a fungus growing on seeds on
paper towels or coffee filters that is apparently unaffected by hydrogen
peroxide, it may be some strain of baccillus subtilus, a useful bacteria
that is not killed by hydrogen peroxide:
http://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index....illus_subtilis
)

[troad]

Dice,
Thanks for the info. I wondered if I could get away with using the peroxide mix from the beginning. I started some more seeds with plain water then sprayed the pellets with the peroxide mix hoping the seeds would not be harmed. Several seeds have come up so i 'll see if I have done enough to protect them.
This is the first year I have ever had a damping problem. I guess I will follow your lead and use a peroxide solution when I start my seeds and water them as they grow.
Have you tried the chamomile tea as an aid? I wonder if it can be used in the same way from the beginning like you use the peroxide?
Len

[dice]

Originally Posted by troad

Have you tried the chamomile tea as an aid? I wonder if it can be used in the same way from the beginning like you use the peroxide?

I did try it one year, but I did not use it from the beginning, like I do with
the dilute hydrogen peroxide. I already had seedlings damping off and
fungus growing on top of the seed-starting media. It killed the fungus on
top of the soil, but none of the seedlings showing symptoms recovered.
That was before I heard about the hydrogen peroxide treatment, which
has worked well, used until potting up into 3" pots.

(I should get some and try it with that seed-starting mix that I used to find
out what the mystery seeds were, since I already know it has spores for
some fungus that can cause damping off.)

According to Wikipedia, there is more than one kind of fungus that can
cause damping off:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damping_off

[troad]

Dice,
Thanks for the link. I have read there are several possible culprits.
Interesting you identified the seed-starting mix as the source of the problem with your mystery seeds.
This is the first year I bought and used some Fox Farm Light Warrior mix. I started with it and added some of it to some MG potting mix when I transplanted my seedlings. In 2 days I had casualties allover my trays. I would think if the FFLW was the source I would have seen the problem right after sprouting. The only thing is that the extra FFLW I added to to potting soil had been left in the house (warm environment) and it had been in water for a few days. It was difficult to get the product wet so I left some soaking. Probably bad idea to use it later.

I am considering tossing both products now. The only thing I need to know is can I clean up all my trays, lights, work area etc. so I do not have this going forward? Like I said this is the first time I have ever seen any damping off. Or am I likely to be stuck with this? I will use the peroxide mix again but can I use it on other seeds and plants?

[MarinaRussian]

What proportions do you use for the hp solution? There appears to be some type of fungus showing up in a few pots with seedlings. It looks like patches of cream of wheat, some white and some yellow. When you touch it with a toothpick, a little powdery "cloud" comes up. I've taken off the top layer of the soiless mix, but it keeps reappearing. Should I just transplant the seedlings using fresh mix and water it with the hp solution?

[dice]

Originally Posted by MarinaRussian

What proportions do you use for the hp solution?

The common hydrogen peroxide that we get here in pharmacies, on
pharmacy shelves at grocery stores, and so on is 3% hydrogen peroxide.
When we add 1 part of that to 10 parts of water, that makes the final
solution about .27%. (I do not measure it exactly, so I am probably using
anywhere from .1% to .5% in actual practice.)

So far, that has not damaged plants or seeds as far as I can see. You
can pour it right on the foliage and no visible damage results.

It does not last very long in the soil or container media. It you water
a seedling with that mild hydrogen peroxide solution, the hydrogen
peroxide will react with molecules in the seed-starting media and be
all used up before the seed-starting media dries out again.

[dice]

Originally Posted by troad

Interesting you identified the seed-starting mix as the source of the problem with your mystery seeds.

The coir was fresh, out of a package new this spring, but the LG3 had
been sitting around open for a couple of years. It was the last remains
of a 2 cubic foot bag that I had used up over a couple of years starting
and potting up seedlings. The peat moss was out of a bale of peat that
I had mixed most of into recycled container mix for container plants,
and the recycled seed-starting mix from the year before had been
outside with seedlings in it in a mini-greenhouse last spring until planting
into the garden. When I tossed the last unused seedlings, I dumped their
seed-starting mix back into an empty bag for miscellaneous use.

So it was not surprising that all of that stuff mixed up together had spores
for various kinds of fungi in it, including some that can cause damping off.
If I was going to use it to pot up sprouted tomato seedlings, I would
probably pour boiling water through it first as a precaution and maybe
give it a minute in a microwave. (I have a basil and a couple of geraniums
that overwintered in it indoors, they are doing fine.)

In sum, it was not seed-starting mix fresh out of a bag that I would have
expected to have been sterilized before packaging (although those can
be contaminated, too).

[carolyn137]

If it's truly damping off caused by one the three genera and species that can cause it, over the years many folks have tried oh so many things with no luck and I mention Chamomile tea as well as cinnamon, etc.

Taking off the upper part of a seedling seldom works b'c the top part has already been infected.

Actually one of my tomato pathology books shows a picture indicating that damping off isn't always indicated by the narrow brown lesion at the soil line, rather, it can not be apparent until the seedlings are 5-6 inches tall, and then they just keel over and die.

Marina, what you describe just sounds to me like surface fungal growth from normal fungi in the air. Just scoop it off, and try to keep the plants less moist if you can. It happens a lot especially when folks use peat pots, but I've seen it even when I've already transplanted to the plastic cells I used to use to grow on plants to 6-9 inches which is the size I think does best when transplanted out.

In other words, it's just normal non-pathogenic fungi and is environmental and not a problem or cause of harm to the seedlings.