Very basic question...please define "sucker"

texasjack · July 12, 2012

I've been growing for several years. Some years I've pruned, sometimes heavily sometime sparingly, some years not at all except for diseased areas. Frankly I haven't seen dramatic differences in productivity.....I recognize this is a non scientific conclusion with so many other varibles.

After reading up on pruning here and other sources I've become confused by the terminology used.

What exactly is a "sucker"? My plants have a) mostly vertical members..."stems" b) mostly horizontal members that grow at approx 90 degrees to the "stems" and produce only foliage and c) members that grow out of the "stems" at angles of 30-45 degrees upward from the "stem". Pollinated blossoms and fruit generally occur at or near this ★★★★★★★★.

OK...please straighten me out on the correct terminology and explain what gets cut off. I do not subscribe to the idea of cutting off some of the vertical "stems", but I might be persauded.

Extra Credit Question.....If you do prune do you cut very close to the "stem" or do you leave 1" or so that later dries up and falls off by itself ?

Thanks

Texas Jack

Worth1 · July 12, 2012

A sucker grows out from the stump or even roots of a plant next to the ground.
A branch grows out from the crotch of the leaves and other branches.

I dont prune anything but leaves close to the ground and diseased parts of a plant.

When I do I dont measure I just cut where it is convenient.

Worth

**carolyn137** · July 12, 2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by texasjack

I've been growing for several years. Some years I've pruned, sometimes heavily sometime sparingly, some years not at all except for diseased areas. Frankly I haven't seen dramatic differences in productivity.....I recognize this is a non scientific conclusion with so many other varibles.

After reading up on pruning here and other sources I've become confused by the terminology used.

What exactly is a "sucker"? My plants have a) mostly vertical members..."stems" b) mostly horizontal members that grow at approx 90 degrees to the "stems" and produce only foliage and c) members that grow out of the "stems" at angles of 30-45 degrees upward from the "stem". Pollinated blossoms and fruit generally occur at or near this ★★★★★★★★.

OK...please straighten me out on the correct terminology and explain what gets cut off. I do not subscribe to the idea of cutting off some of the vertical "stems", but I might be persauded.

Extra Credit Question.....If you do prune do you cut very close to the "stem" or do you leave 1" or so that later dries up and falls off by itself ?

Thanks

Texas Jack

http://www.gardeningknowhow.com/vege...nt-suckers.htm

...... from a Google search where there are other pertinent links as well, but I like this ones the best b'c it clearly shows what a sucker is andI've posted it here an elsewhere as well/.

The proper term for a sucker is a lateral branch and since I never prune suckers, I have no idea how close to the main stem one would cut.

I don't prune suckers b'c the more foliage the greater the photosynthesis which makes the ATP and GTP that fuels all the metabolic activities of the plant from plant growth to blossom formation to fruit set to fruit maturation.

And it also gives one backup foliage if foliage diseases appear.

it got the name sucker many many decades ago when someone thought that if those lateral branches were allowed to form and set fruits, as they do, that they would "suck" energy away from the plant, which is far from true.

Mudman · July 12, 2012

I have seen that some growers only define a sucker as a shoot that comes from the base of the plant, others include also the new growth that comes from the crotch between the branches and main stems. This kind of sucker shown below. I would guess that mostly people like myself who prune would call these suckers.

mcsee · July 12, 2012

What I call what you have in the attachment is as Carolyn called it a 'Lateral' or even a 'Side Shoot'. These can be nipped out with fingers when small, or cut out when bigger.

Mudman · July 12, 2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcsee

What I call what you have in the attachment is as Carolyn called it a 'Lateral' or even a 'Side Shoot'. These can be nipped out with fingers when small, or cut out when bigger.

Yes, and I would agree with that, but many people and even books I have seen refer to these as "suckers" as a sort of generic term.

Worth1 · July 13, 2012

A sucker is a guy that falls for the 3 card Monte game.

Worth

Father'sDaughter · July 13, 2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by Worth1

A sucker is a guy that falls for the 3 card Monte game.

Worth

Or, a better definition - a sucker is someone who falls for one of Worth's jokes. ;-)

**carolyn137** · July 13, 2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mudman

Yes, and I would agree with that, but many people and even books I have seen refer to these as "suckers" as a sort of generic term.

YEs, there is a generic way of defining what a sucker is, but the question was about tomato suckers and tomatoes don't "sucker" from the base of the plants as do perhaps lilacs, which do sucker from the base of the plant and I've taken some of those suckers to propagate new lilacs.

FILMNET · July 13, 2012

But for me what is important is even if a branch is growing without flowers of fruit, growing from the middle down to the bottom, By By!! see ya later, cut it off close to the stem. I cleaned my friends pots they were small under 3 gal pots each with nice soil i told him to use. Layed them on the ground to show him some branches were as long as the whole plant with nothing on them, flowers or fruits, he finally understood. Came back a few days ago all plants have new flowers on top of plants, told him , now you have a problem, the cages he used were useless in pots. Plants would be top heavy soon i told him.He even had a super sweet 100 cherry in a 1 gal pot from HD i told him no!!! this plant would grow 10ft tall.

Wi-sunflower · July 13, 2012

When someone at my market asks about taking out the suckers I answer them like Carolyn did - the more foliage the greater the photosynthesis . Besides for busy people that makes it easier, one less job you really don't need to do anyway.

The only exception I give to people is if you have them planted and staked and maybe have the plants too close together. Then I have them prune a bit so they aren't so bushy they grow together. This is mostly so there is some air movement to help prevent disease issues.

While I don't know about the origin of the work "sucker" as applied to tomatoes, I do have a bit of an idea about the practice. Back when I first got started growing over 30 years ago, here near a big city, there were several small greenhouses in the suburbs that grew tomatoes as an "off season" crop they sold to local stores (back when stores were allowed to buy from small local growers). Often those growers were some of the only "big" tomato growers around locally at that time. So back yard gardeners got their info from the "professionals" -- those greenhouse growers. It's still common practice in a greenhouse to train to just 1 stem. But that's because in a greenhouse they HAVE TO BE 1 STEM to train them on a string.

I may be all wet about this, but that's my opinion.

Carol

zabby17 · July 13, 2012

Carol,
You could be right about one way pruning got to be so widely recommended as something every tomato gardener shd do. Pruning to one stem also seems to be very popular in European gardens, whether for aesthetics or space reasons I don't know.

Texasjack,
I've seen "sucker" defined in various ways. One major-publishing-house gardening book I have says anything growing in the crook between a main stem and a lateral branch is a sucker and should be pruned off because it will never produce fruit---this makes me sad because a LOT of my fruits grow exactly there, or from branches that spring from there; if anything, it seems to me that the 90-degree-angle branches are more often foliage-only, and branches spring from those "crooks," even if they aren't the ones that produce fruit trusses right there, more often have fruit further down them eventually.

As for persuading you to prune, well, there are some good (persuasive? ;-p ) reasons to prune If you want prune: if you prefer the looks, to improve air circulation, to make your plants easier to support, to grow them closer together than would otherwise be possible so you can try more varieties in a smaller space, to produce larger (though fewer) fruit, and even, as janezee in the PNW reminded me recently, to keep new fruits from forming so the few you have have more of a chance to grow and ripen in a cool, damp climate (some people in my chilly zone start pinching the TOPS of their plants in late August for a similar reason).

I take off branches that are showing signs of yellowing or of insect damage, and also branches that are in my way when I'm tying my plants to their stakes---I have one stake per plant, and sometimes things get a bit crowded right around it. Everything else, bring it on!

I've been persuaded by a lot of evidence that pruning doesn't make an otherwise healthy plant that has enough room to grow and a tomato-friendly climate be any more productive. It seems a shame that so many gardening resources say otherwise, because the result is a lot of gardeners losing out on some fruit, and on some time that could better be spent making salsa, perfecting the BLT, or celebrating Tomato Zabby Day!

Good luck with your tomatoes, whatever you do.

Z

FILMNET · July 13, 2012

Well said, but the beginners do not understand that fruits grow from different places on plants, i grow 18 different plants.

Farmette · July 13, 2012

Quote:

Originally Posted by FILMNET

But for me what is important is even if a branch is growing without flowers of fruit, growing from the middle down to the bottom, By By!! see ya later, cut it off close to the stem. I cleaned my friends pots they were small under 3 gal pots each with nice soil i told him to use. Layed them on the ground to show him some branches were as long as the whole plant with nothing on them, flowers or fruits, he finally understood. Came back a few days ago all plants have new flowers on top of plants, told him , now you have a problem, the cages he used were useless in pots. Plants would be top heavy soon i told him.He even had a super sweet 100 cherry in a 1 gal pot from HD i told him no!!! this plant would grow 10ft tall.

In some cases I have taken off one of the branches growing from the middle down to the bottom, but more often than not I have regretted it as I realized that branch (while seemingly not productive as it has no flowers) has great importance as it acts as a support for other branches that do have tomatoes and flowers. So, now I rarely ever do that.

Farmette · July 13, 2012

Carolyn's comment about leaving as much foliage on as possible is so true:

"And it also gives one backup foliage if foliage diseases appear."

Last year I pruned so much that when disease finally came, there were not enough leaves left.
I have wondered that if one leaves as much foliage on the plant as possible, that the foliage can act as as somewhat of a barrier to wind born disease.

July 12, 2012	#1
texasjack Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Houston Tx Posts: 33	Very basic question...please define "sucker" I've been growing for several years. Some years I've pruned, sometimes heavily sometime sparingly, some years not at all except for diseased areas. Frankly I haven't seen dramatic differences in productivity.....I recognize this is a non scientific conclusion with so many other varibles. After reading up on pruning here and other sources I've become confused by the terminology used. What exactly is a "sucker"? My plants have a) mostly vertical members..."stems" b) mostly horizontal members that grow at approx 90 degrees to the "stems" and produce only foliage and c) members that grow out of the "stems" at angles of 30-45 degrees upward from the "stem". Pollinated blossoms and fruit generally occur at or near this ★★★★★★★★. OK...please straighten me out on the correct terminology and explain what gets cut off. I do not subscribe to the idea of cutting off some of the vertical "stems", but I might be persauded. Extra Credit Question.....If you do prune do you cut very close to the "stem" or do you leave 1" or so that later dries up and falls off by itself ? Thanks Texas Jack

July 12, 2012	#4
Mudman Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: NW Wisconsin Posts: 910	I have seen that some growers only define a sucker as a shoot that comes from the base of the plant, others include also the new growth that comes from the crotch between the branches and main stems. This kind of sucker shown below. I would guess that mostly people like myself who prune would call these suckers. __________________ Mike

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July 12, 2012	#2
Worth1 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Den of Drunken Fools Posts: 38,539	A sucker grows out from the stump or even roots of a plant next to the ground. A branch grows out from the crotch of the leaves and other branches. I dont prune anything but leaves close to the ground and diseased parts of a plant. When I do I dont measure I just cut where it is convenient. Worth

July 12, 2012	#5
mcsee Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Victoria. Australia Posts: 543	What I call what you have in the attachment is as Carolyn called it a 'Lateral' or even a 'Side Shoot'. These can be nipped out with fingers when small, or cut out when bigger.

July 13, 2012	#7
Worth1 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Den of Drunken Fools Posts: 38,539	A sucker is a guy that falls for the 3 card Monte game. Worth

July 13, 2012	#10
FILMNET Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: North Charleston,South Carolina, USA Posts: 1,803	But for me what is important is even if a branch is growing without flowers of fruit, growing from the middle down to the bottom, By By!! see ya later, cut it off close to the stem. I cleaned my friends pots they were small under 3 gal pots each with nice soil i told him to use. Layed them on the ground to show him some branches were as long as the whole plant with nothing on them, flowers or fruits, he finally understood. Came back a few days ago all plants have new flowers on top of plants, told him , now you have a problem, the cages he used were useless in pots. Plants would be top heavy soon i told him.He even had a super sweet 100 cherry in a 1 gal pot from HD i told him no!!! this plant would grow 10ft tall.

July 13, 2012	#11
Wi-sunflower Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 2,591	When someone at my market asks about taking out the suckers I answer them like Carolyn did - the more foliage the greater the photosynthesis . Besides for busy people that makes it easier, one less job you really don't need to do anyway. The only exception I give to people is if you have them planted and staked and maybe have the plants too close together. Then I have them prune a bit so they aren't so bushy they grow together. This is mostly so there is some air movement to help prevent disease issues. While I don't know about the origin of the work "sucker" as applied to tomatoes, I do have a bit of an idea about the practice. Back when I first got started growing over 30 years ago, here near a big city, there were several small greenhouses in the suburbs that grew tomatoes as an "off season" crop they sold to local stores (back when stores were allowed to buy from small local growers). Often those growers were some of the only "big" tomato growers around locally at that time. So back yard gardeners got their info from the "professionals" -- those greenhouse growers. It's still common practice in a greenhouse to train to just 1 stem. But that's because in a greenhouse they HAVE TO BE 1 STEM to train them on a string. I may be all wet about this, but that's my opinion. Carol

July 13, 2012	#12
zabby17 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Aug 2011 Location: Ontario Posts: 211	Carol, You could be right about one way pruning got to be so widely recommended as something every tomato gardener shd do. Pruning to one stem also seems to be very popular in European gardens, whether for aesthetics or space reasons I don't know. Texasjack, I've seen "sucker" defined in various ways. One major-publishing-house gardening book I have says anything growing in the crook between a main stem and a lateral branch is a sucker and should be pruned off because it will never produce fruit---this makes me sad because a LOT of my fruits grow exactly there, or from branches that spring from there; if anything, it seems to me that the 90-degree-angle branches are more often foliage-only, and branches spring from those "crooks," even if they aren't the ones that produce fruit trusses right there, more often have fruit further down them eventually. As for persuading you to prune, well, there are some good (persuasive? ;-p ) reasons to prune If you want prune: if you prefer the looks, to improve air circulation, to make your plants easier to support, to grow them closer together than would otherwise be possible so you can try more varieties in a smaller space, to produce larger (though fewer) fruit, and even, as janezee in the PNW reminded me recently, to keep new fruits from forming so the few you have have more of a chance to grow and ripen in a cool, damp climate (some people in my chilly zone start pinching the TOPS of their plants in late August for a similar reason). I take off branches that are showing signs of yellowing or of insect damage, and also branches that are in my way when I'm tying my plants to their stakes---I have one stake per plant, and sometimes things get a bit crowded right around it. Everything else, bring it on! I've been persuaded by a lot of evidence that pruning doesn't make an otherwise healthy plant that has enough room to grow and a tomato-friendly climate be any more productive. It seems a shame that so many gardening resources say otherwise, because the result is a lot of gardeners losing out on some fruit, and on some time that could better be spent making salsa, perfecting the BLT, or celebrating Tomato Zabby Day! Good luck with your tomatoes, whatever you do. Z

July 13, 2012	#15
Farmette Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2009 Location: Wisconsin Posts: 985	Carolyn's comment about leaving as much foliage on as possible is so true: "And it also gives one backup foliage if foliage diseases appear." Last year I pruned so much that when disease finally came, there were not enough leaves left. I have wondered that if one leaves as much foliage on the plant as possible, that the foliage can act as as somewhat of a barrier to wind born disease.