Hand, open pollination?

CapnChkn · February 18, 2013

Ok, I've searched everywhere, and can't find a reasonable answer. I notice the idea of open pollination is popular. If there are a number of pollen donors, wouldn't it be similar to open pollination?

What's with Organic seed? Here's another label. Organic or Organically grown vegetables I can see. If you fell in love, but the love interest was raised eating red meat, and hasn't for years, would that be some reason to stop associating?

Why're the labels OP or Organic important? Some species simply couldn't reliably be open pollinated, like corn. I realize corn can be reliably pollinated if there's enough distance or time between different bloomings of different cultivars, but here in TN, I don't see much of a possibility of that.

Doug9345 · February 18, 2013

I'll answer about open pollinated. Open pollinated generally means that the variety's off spring will be the same as the parents if the seed is saved from a plant that has been pollinated by itself or another plant of the same variety.

Take squash for example. Even though I'll have to tape blossoms closed and hand pollinate if I'm growing more than one variety of a species and want to keep the variety pure, it is still open pollinated. As long as I pollinate Table King acorn with Table King Acorn the seed I'll produce is Table King and not a hybrid. The management practices that I have to use are independent of the fact that if I only have one variety it will breed true.

Buying organically grow seed is more about using your money to vote for methods you believe in than anything else.

Corn can be done. Glenn of Sand Hill Preservation manages to list about 150 varieties that are open pollinated. Read here how he does it. http://www.sandhillpreservation.com/catalog/corn.html

CapnChkn · February 18, 2013

Thank You!

That helps to clear things up. I was wondering how I was going to keep pure varieties with the confused way I get things done. Like while I was writing this I hit the wrong button. Now you're reading an edit.

OP is then more of an abstract?

Doug9345 · February 18, 2013

Was the egg plant ripe enough for seed saving? They turn a sort of brown-yellow when ripe enough for seed saving.

Look at the picture in post #4
http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=4159

CapnChkn · February 18, 2013

Bonk!

Yessir Doug! I done left that sucker on there an wouldn't let nobody pick it until the frost wuz bout to come.

It wasn't really yellow, more of a dull yellow gray. I am looking at one seed right now that has a root tip coming out the bottom. Here's what Doug was responding to all...

Quote:

Thank You!

It occurs to me I should offer some of the seed I've been saving from last year on the trade forum. I've already received and started a bunch of the stuff I can't find in the stores, and feel I should reciprocate.

The only seeds I actually have that I can qualify are Yellow pear tomatoes, and Black Beauty Eggplants. Tray, support over the tray, and paper towels on top of my old CRT monitor has the yellow pears starting in 3 days, but the eggplants are not really doing much. Both are open pollinated.

The eggplants are a surprise that came up when I transplanted what I thought was Arugula. It turns out I planted them, thought they'd died, and sowed the rocket on top. So they're the only eggplants grown. I'm on an old dairy farm with very few gardens around; I'm confident the strain is pure.

But the dozens of different plants I'm growing this year are all getting up and going without much maintenece, the eggplants from last year's seed is frustrating me. Thus is mine angst.

So in an effort to fix things "what ain't broke," I'm thinking the germination rate could be increased with a "hand" up so to speak.

Right now I'm seeing one little root tip poking out of one little seed. For the time being, it seems I can refrain from indulging in any plant sex. Maybe later...

Heh! I have to do it like that...

Doug9345 · February 19, 2013

My Black Beauty took 7 and 8 day's last year at 85ºF.

Here's what my five eggplant did last year. Casper was significantly slower than the others.

I can't get it to format so I'm attaching it as a screen shot.

CapnChkn · February 19, 2013

I have the grow box here in my bedroom, the seedlings get moved out to the cold frame when they get true leaves. I planted the seeds I harvested last year weeks ago, in spent worm castings.

This year I decided I wanted more control, so added the paper towel system. I didn't mark the date I put the eggplant seed in the towel, but it's showing something while the paper pots in the grow box are not. 10 pots, nothing for weeks / paper towel, 1 or 2 weeks and I'm seeing some roots. I need to set up some record keeping I guess. Is that a spreadsheet?

Now as to the Open Pollination, is there some kind of guideline where this is defined? Are there any rules by organic growers or otherwise? It seems too loose a definition. Or is this like calling Rape, "Canola" for a marketing purpose?

Doug9345 · February 19, 2013

Yes it is. Actually it's a few lines from a spreadsheet that has 8 or 10 pages and a hundred lines or more per page. I dont really have harvest data from last year because health and weather over whelmed me last year. I use open office for spreadsheet and word processing. The project has split into Open Office and Libre office. The difference has to with things internal to the project.

CapnChkn · February 20, 2013

Ok. I use Ubuntu, and Libreoffice is loaded in the package.

Doug9345 · February 20, 2013

The way I keep back ups of it is to email it to a yahoo address I have. That way is my computer goes down I still know where stuff is planted. I also save it at times both in excel format so that someone with excel could open it and even export it as a pdf so that I could always go to the library and print it out if I had to.

dice · February 22, 2013

"open pollenated" (or "open pollinated") does not denote the method
of pollenation, which can be self pollenated, wind pollenated, bee
pollenated, manually pollenated, or whatever. It denotes a genetic
difference between genetically unstable (across generations) hybrids
and genetically stable "open pollenated" cultivars, which will
produce the same combination of genes over and over in the saved
seeds if the plants self pollenate.

Hybrids will not do that. When a hybrid self-pollenates and you save
seeds, you get a fanout of different combinations of genes in plants
of the next generation. The plant and fruit that each combination
of genes produces will tend to be different both from the parent hybrid
and from each other.

CapnChkn · February 22, 2013

I see. So what you're saying is "Open Pollinated" are not candidates for hybrid, and vice-versa. That kind of makes OP/Heirloom redundant doesn't it? Thank you, that makes pollinating seeds a whole lot easier.

Doug, that works. Do you have the spreadsheet? Formulas, dates and template, not the data? I use Libreoffice Calc to run spreadsheets for farm expenses and Market sales.

I usually use a flash drive to backup, if I don't send it to another computer or the NAS. If you download the Teamviewer software, you can actually run the other computer from the first. It requires a password, the software to be installed on both computers, Internet connection, and if you just want to connect using the LAN, you need to specify that in the options.

Doug9345 · February 22, 2013

Quote:

Originally Posted by CapnChkn

I see. So what you're saying is "Open Pollinated" are not candidates for hybrid, and vice-versa. That kind of makes OP/Heirloom redundant doesn't it?

No it doesn't Heirloom, is a subclass of open pollinated. All heirlooms are open pollinated, but not all open pollinated tomatoes are heirlooms. Typically heirlooms are either something that has been passed down from generation to generation or are old commercial varieties. Which definition depends on who you are talking about.

Another example is all the tomatoes that are release out of the dwarf project are open pollinated, none of them are heirlooms.

With that all said there are many that use the term heirloom incorrectly.

dice · February 22, 2013

You can take two open-pollenated cultivars and make a new
hybrid. If you grow out and select the best over several years,
insuring that they do not cross again with anything else
and saving seeds, you will eventually arrive at a new
open-pollenated variety.

This document explains the genetics of stabilization
of open-pollenated cultivars that were once hybrids
(be sure to continue to the next page until the end):
http://kdcomm.net/~tomato/gene/genes.html

CapnChkn · February 23, 2013

¡Que Bueno! That's what the original question is. I have Rutgers, I see people advertising their Rutgers as "heirloom." As I remember, Rutgers was developed for commercial use. There are people talking about saving their commercial seed, carrying the line, and "now" it's an heirloom!

I, a frustrated wordsmith, have all kinds of trouble with people mixing genre. Either out of laziness, or ignorance. I pass this wisdom on, and feel cheated when I find out it's totally wrong.

February 18, 2013	#1
CapnChkn Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Huntsville AL Posts: 91	Hand, open pollination? Ok, I've searched everywhere, and can't find a reasonable answer. I notice the idea of open pollination is popular. If there are a number of pollen donors, wouldn't it be similar to open pollination? What's with Organic seed? Here's another label. Organic or Organically grown vegetables I can see. If you fell in love, but the love interest was raised eating red meat, and hasn't for years, would that be some reason to stop associating? Why're the labels OP or Organic important? Some species simply couldn't reliably be open pollinated, like corn. I realize corn can be reliably pollinated if there's enough distance or time between different bloomings of different cultivars, but here in TN, I don't see much of a possibility of that.

February 18, 2013	#3
CapnChkn Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Huntsville AL Posts: 91	Thank You! That helps to clear things up. I was wondering how I was going to keep pure varieties with the confused way I get things done. Like while I was writing this I hit the wrong button. Now you're reading an edit. OP is then more of an abstract? Last edited by CapnChkn; February 18, 2013 at 11:15 PM. Reason: Posted before I was ready.

February 22, 2013	#11
dice Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: PNW Posts: 4,743	"open pollenated" (or "open pollinated") does not denote the method of pollenation, which can be self pollenated, wind pollenated, bee pollenated, manually pollenated, or whatever. It denotes a genetic difference between genetically unstable (across generations) hybrids and genetically stable "open pollenated" cultivars, which will produce the same combination of genes over and over in the saved seeds if the plants self pollenate. Hybrids will not do that. When a hybrid self-pollenates and you save seeds, you get a fanout of different combinations of genes in plants of the next generation. The plant and fruit that each combination of genes produces will tend to be different both from the parent hybrid and from each other. __________________ -- alias

February 22, 2013	#14
dice Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: PNW Posts: 4,743	You can take two open-pollenated cultivars and make a new hybrid. If you grow out and select the best over several years, insuring that they do not cross again with anything else and saving seeds, you will eventually arrive at a new open-pollenated variety. This document explains the genetics of stabilization of open-pollenated cultivars that were once hybrids (be sure to continue to the next page until the end): http://kdcomm.net/~tomato/gene/genes.html __________________ -- alias Last edited by dice; February 22, 2013 at 06:59 PM. Reason: clarity

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February 18, 2013	#2
Doug9345 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Durhamville,NY Posts: 2,706	I'll answer about open pollinated. Open pollinated generally means that the variety's off spring will be the same as the parents if the seed is saved from a plant that has been pollinated by itself or another plant of the same variety. Take squash for example. Even though I'll have to tape blossoms closed and hand pollinate if I'm growing more than one variety of a species and want to keep the variety pure, it is still open pollinated. As long as I pollinate Table King acorn with Table King Acorn the seed I'll produce is Table King and not a hybrid. The management practices that I have to use are independent of the fact that if I only have one variety it will breed true. Buying organically grow seed is more about using your money to vote for methods you believe in than anything else. Corn can be done. Glenn of Sand Hill Preservation manages to list about 150 varieties that are open pollinated. Read here how he does it. http://www.sandhillpreservation.com/catalog/corn.html

February 19, 2013	#7
CapnChkn Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Huntsville AL Posts: 91	I have the grow box here in my bedroom, the seedlings get moved out to the cold frame when they get true leaves. I planted the seeds I harvested last year weeks ago, in spent worm castings. This year I decided I wanted more control, so added the paper towel system. I didn't mark the date I put the eggplant seed in the towel, but it's showing something while the paper pots in the grow box are not. 10 pots, nothing for weeks / paper towel, 1 or 2 weeks and I'm seeing some roots. I need to set up some record keeping I guess. Is that a spreadsheet? Now as to the Open Pollination, is there some kind of guideline where this is defined? Are there any rules by organic growers or otherwise? It seems too loose a definition. Or is this like calling Rape, "Canola" for a marketing purpose?

February 20, 2013	#9
CapnChkn Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Huntsville AL Posts: 91	Ok. I use Ubuntu, and Libreoffice is loaded in the package.

February 23, 2013	#15
CapnChkn Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Huntsville AL Posts: 91	¡Que Bueno! That's what the original question is. I have Rutgers, I see people advertising their Rutgers as "heirloom." As I remember, Rutgers was developed for commercial use. There are people talking about saving their commercial seed, carrying the line, and "now" it's an heirloom! I, a frustrated wordsmith, have all kinds of trouble with people mixing genre. Either out of laziness, or ignorance. I pass this wisdom on, and feel cheated when I find out it's totally wrong.