Hmmm Shadow boxing? maybe not...

[KarenO]

Hello folks,
I received a seed labelled shadow boxing in Tormato's last swap. Planted it and it grew into a very nice plant but I am not sure that it is shadow boxing. perhaps you can help.
It appears to be a sturdy and fairly big dwarf plant with thick rugosed foliage. blooms in clusters of about six and is producing lots of elongated small but larger than a cherry striped green on green tomatoes with a distinct pointed nipple at the blossom end. very pretty but I see no hint of blue as yet but the foliage is very thick so the sun may not be getting at them and they are not ripe so I do not know what the color will be, if they will stay green or change color.
Do you think it is dwarf shadow boxing? regardless what it is, I like it a lot so far.

Thanks Karen O

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by KarenO

Hello folks,
I received a seed labelled shadow boxing in Tormato's last swap. Planted it and it grew into a very nice plant but I am not sure that it is shadow boxing. perhaps you can help.
It appears to be a sturdy and fairly big dwarf plant with thick rugosed foliage. blooms in clusters of about six and is producing lots of elongated small but larger than a cherry striped green on green tomatoes with a distinct pointed nipple at the blossom end. very pretty but I see no hint of blue as yet but the foliage is very thick so the sun may not be getting at them and they are not ripe so I do not know what the color will be, if they will stay green or change color.
Do you think it is dwarf shadow boxing? regardless what it is, I like it a lot so far.

Thanks Karen O

Tom Wagner bred shadow boxing. Maybe he is the one to comment? All I can say is that mine are not like that. You can see some similarities, but mine have color, both in the plant and the fruit, and not so large a nipple at the blossom end.

PS Why didn't you add this to the shadow boxing thread?shadow boxing

[RobinB]

Last year, I grew out two plants. Both had fruit which were shaped like yours, although perhaps not quite so pointy at the end. One plant produced red fruit with green stripes and the other produced brick red fruit with blue and green stripes. Both had an outstanding taste. The blue was there from the beginning, it did not appear later on.

[KarenO]

Hi Redbaron, I didn't add it there as I really don't think it is shadow boxing and the title of that thread you refer to is "shadow boxing wavy blues" which I thought was a different tomato. I know Mr. Wagner bred shadow boxing and I am hoping he sees this new thread and can comment
So Your plants are not dwarfs RB? Sometimes I see references to "dwarf shadow boxing" and sometimes just shadow boxing. are there two? This one of mine is definitely dwarf.
Karen O

[Redbaron]

Originally Posted by KarenO

Hi Redbaron, I didn't add it there as I really don't think it is shadow boxing and the title of that thread you refer to is "shadow boxing wavy blues" which I thought was a different tomato. I know Mr. Wagner bred shadow boxing and I am hoping he sees this new thread and can comment
So Your plants are not dwarfs RB? Sometimes I see references to "dwarf shadow boxing" and sometimes just shadow boxing. are there two? This one of mine is definitely dwarf.
Karen O

Mine are not dwarfs. They are small, slower growing, and well behaved, might even be smaller than yours due to their late start, but definitely not dwarfs. They have regular foliage that if anything tends towards thinner than regular rather than more rugose.

I suppose that someone inexperienced with various plant growth habits might think it "dwarf" just because the plants are smaller than very vigorous things like big beef, big boy, sun gold etc.... but true dwarfs are very easy to spot, even in the very very early seedling stage. There was a time early on when the seedlings were even larger than most. While dwarfs show up 1/2 size right away.

[KarenO]

And also thanks Robin B, as you point out, I would have thought the blue should have been be apparent long ago but I was still somehow waiting for it to appear out of "the blue" . A fine mystery of a tomato I have here it seems. I like it better all the time and I hope it tastes as good as yours.
KO

[Jayc]

Lovely looking plant KarenO

I grew Shadow Boxing last year all were indeterminate. Fruit colour and shapes varied somewhat from round to very similar to your picture - elongated with a point. Antho also varied on the fruit from looking almost black to none. I thought it was a really striking looking tomato and can't wait for the plants I have grown from seeds of my favourites from last to ripen

This year I'm also growing another line I bought which is indeed Dwarf. I've added a couple of pictures of my dwarf Shadow Boxing taken a couple of weeks ago.

I notice Tom Wagner Seeds has them for sale and it appears Gary picture (or Tom's) to be a dwarf.
http://www.tomwagnerseeds.com/index....ow-boxing.html
Tom also posted about it with a picture http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=28828 reply 12

[KarenO]

Thanks! That sure does look a lot like mine! I am really looking forward to some ripe ones. I'll put a pic on this thread when I have some. Shouldn't be too long before the first ones start to turn
Karen

[Jayc]

Oooh, lucky you, mine are still a while before ripening. Looking forward to hearing how yours taste

Did you grow just the one plant? I wonder if they are all dwarfs or some indeterminate Shadow Boxing too?

[Tom Wagner]

Wow! Lots of posting about my Shadow Boxing breeding lines. I posted over on the Photo Gallery sub forum...not sure if I ever went there.

Shadow boxing is the act of punching into the air, usually without an opponent, as exercise. The name comes from the practice of standing close to a wall and pretending to punch the shadow you project onto it. Most professional boxers start their training by learning to quickly and effectively punch the air from all angles, before being given gloves.

The very nature of the Shadow Boxing clones is akin to shadow boxing...very elusive target..the blue coloring can be like a shadow...the stripes...if there...makes it a difficult target. I wanted the so-called variety to be variable. Actually, the name SHADOW BOXING is a place holder name...and was given to an F-2 clone and rather than name a single non varying clone....I wanted and wished to have many sub clones out there to develop favorites.

Shadow Boxing clones have grown to include several versions of Dwarfs, determinate, and indeterminates. I have not gotten a lot of seed back from my early customers and I understand fully that trades are involved. If I don't get seed back the clones offered will be from what I have here locally or what is being grown out in Hawaii.

Add to all that confusion....which I love, BTW....many new F-1 crosses and recombinants will be forthcoming.

If anyone wants any of the seed bandied about....my suggestion is to work with this breeder/vendor to make it possible for the better sub clones be increased and made 'kosher' in the long run. I would think people would want my 'filter' on a clone. Give your clone some gravitas by allowing me to sanction it.

One thing many people don't realize about Shadow Boxing clones is that some of the determinates can be BN types. That is where they almost look dwarf but are not.

Tom Wagner

[KarenO]

Hello Tom and thanks for commenting! what you said is very interesting and I don't pretend to understand most of it just a home gardener here...how can clones be different from each other? anyway I think what you do is great and I will definitely order from your site in future. I was given this one single seed and I am just happy that it grew for me! pleased to have one of your creations and pleased to know it is one of your "shadow boxing clones"
I would be very happy to send you seed from this plant if you want it Tom. I really think it is a great looking tomato with interesting fruit and I am looking forward to tasting them soon. I can't imagine that they wont taste as good as they look.
Karen
Karen

[RobinB]

Tom,

I would be happy to send some seed in. I am the one that added "Wavy Blue" to the name after finding a gorgeous, tasty brick red fruit with blue lightning stripes last year. I probably wouldn't have bothered to add a name if I had known it was only an F2, but people name "finds" in the Dwarf Tomato Project that early all the time. Others on TVille last year advised me to keep "Shadow Boxing" in the name and to always mention the breeder's name. I meant no disrespect.

Last year, when I bought the Shadow Boxing seed from you I didn't even know that it was not a stable variety. Your website did not mention anything about it. I am fairly new to all this and only sort of knew who you were. There is also no mention anywhere (either on your website or sent with the seeds) that you wanted seed sent back. No instructions on what you want people to do. Respectfully, just how are we supposed to know these things if you don't tell us somehow?

[Tom Wagner]

Robin, you made some good points!

I would be happy to send some seed in. I am the one that added "Wavy Blue" to the name after finding a gorgeous, tasty brick red fruit with blue lightning stripes last year. I probably wouldn't have bothered to add a name if I had known it was only an F2, but people name "finds" in the Dwarf Tomato Project that early all the time. Others on TVille last year advised me to keep "Shadow Boxing" in the name and to always mention the breeder's name. I meant no disrespect.

Keeping the name gives respect to the breeder and a gratuitous 'send back' of seed of say...SHADOW BOXING "Wavy Blue" selection is a start. This kind of returning seed back to the breeder for potential increase also implies mentioning 'Robin' in the formal introduction of the strain. Not being a member of the 'Dwarf Tomato Project' nor being invited to be part of that group has left me outside the protocol of events. But yes, a name could be given to a hybrid and another name offered up in the filial generations which in my case can start anywhere...F-1, F-2, etc.

Last year, when I bought the Shadow Boxing seed from you I didn't even know that it was not a stable variety. Your website did not mention anything about it. I am fairly new to all this and only sort of knew who you were. There is also no mention anywhere (either on your website or sent with the seeds) that you wanted seed sent back. No instructions on what you want people to do. Respectfully, just how are we supposed to know these things if you don't tell us somehow?

I look for basic recessives to be homozygous and allow for other traits to be heterozygous, providing a platform for varietal selection or re-direction. Shadow Boxing is a prototype and I knew instinctively that there was more there than just one boring so-called stable version. How I wish I kept other prototypes of say...Green Zebra concurrent. There is implicit relationship with the public that the varietiy released will breed true. That relationship is being reforged.

There is no dedicated place for me in the greater tomato industry, therefore I follow no protocols...such as no release til 'stable' mentalities. No catalog company has ever hired me to be a tomato breeder for official releases and...had they...the tomatoes would be theirs, not mine. By being a private breeder, I am a maverick. Even though I done contract work with some companies for research purposes, I retained the ownership of my breeding lines.

I have webmasters who design the two websites to sell my seed but I have little to do with the construction. It is my fault if I didn't say I would want seed back from newer private selections. I figured that would be on a case by case issue. But you can be sure I will bring this issue up.

Visionary or not, I envision a time when a variety may undergo phenomenal naming convention changes. If I have a SHADOW BOXING Selection Wavy Blues/Robin Hawaii increse group/Dwarf and determinate....F-8 filiial level....that information could be for my use or for the customer's edification. If the name is shortened in revisionary names in the future....that is for the breeder/vendor to worry about.

[RobinB]

Tom,

Perhaps just a simple slip of paper in with each seed order asking people to send seed back or contact you if they find something special?

So far, I have not found the "Wavy Blue" again this year. BUT, only one of four plants in my garden this year is producing. The one I have found has that same outstanding taste as 2012, but is red/green striped with the blue "shadow". I started a lot of seed and chose the bluest seedlings to set out.

Personally, I plan to try and find the Wavy Blue again and try to stabilize it. Call me crazy, but I like "stable." I totally understand your point though, and had never thought of it from your perspective. It was a phenomenal tomato, both in looks and taste.

Here is a photo from last year in case you didn't see it:

[Tom Wagner]

Perhaps just a simple slip of paper in with each seed order asking people to send seed back or contact you if they find something special?

That sounds like a great idea. With a growing amount of seed work needing feedback and a sample of seed with unusual combinations, I should do that. As people tend to store their envelopes for many years...having that message would be inspire send backs even years later.