Neglected seedlings did not like being rescued

[stromato]

Another sad seedling story:

A backup tray of seedlings in DE was never picked up by the person who was supposed to grow them out and was left by some large windows with only a house sitter to care for them. (Another tray of the same selection of seeds that was potted up and planted out in the usual way has done very well, with no sign of disease.)

It sounds like the backup tray was watered adequately and would have received about 6 hours a day of direct sunlight through the windows, but those seedlings ended up sitting in the window in an egg carton tray of DE for two months with no fertilizer. They were described as never getting more than six inches tall, presumably due to lack of nutrients.

The house sitter grew attached to the “baby plants” and decided to try to rescue and adopt them when she noticed that the previously dark green leaves had begun to fade to light green. She had previously moved the tray to a spot receiving less direct sunlight for a week or two. She says she transplanted the seedlings into a potting mix, “gently removing” the DE from the seedling roots and immediately planting the seedlings into slightly moist mix in small pots with drainage holes, “pressing the mix down gently” to remove air pockets, with an inch or so of the stems below the mix, and thoroughly watering the just potted seedlings with distilled water. Just two days later, though, she says the leaves continued to fade from light green to yellow and some of the stems bent over—not at the soil line but about halfway up the stems. She watered again a couple of days later, this time with kelp/fish emulsion based fertilizer in the water, which caused some of the stems to perk up a little, but the seedlings continued to die.

I don’t know much about seedlings, but I guessed that they were probably already too deficient in nutrients to be saved. However, there was obviously something about the potting up procedure she used that those particular seedlings could not tolerate. She used pro-mix HP, I think with the myco and biofungicide. I have never used that mix, but as far as I know it would be a good enough quality mix for potting up


Was there some error in the way she attempted to rescue the malnourished seedlings when she repotted them in the potting mix or is it just that only very healthy seedlings can tolerate potting up?

[Redbaron]

I "rescue" seedlings exactly like those every year. Whatever extras I have I put in the "graveyard" ie a section of garden I save for that purpose. About 1/2 or so survive.

[bcday]

Originally Posted by stromato

...she noticed that the previously dark green leaves had begun to fade to light green. She had previously moved the tray to a spot receiving less direct sunlight for a week or two.

Why did she previously move healthy sun-loving seedlings (they had dark green leaves, yes?) to a spot with less sun for two weeks? Were they kept in this less-sunny spot after being potted up as well? If so, no wonder the leaves started turning yellow and the stems flopped over. Not to say that she should immediately put them in bright sun outdoors, but they should have stayed in the sunny window.

Distilled water is not necessary. In fact, plain tap water has some mineral content that is useful to the plants. My tap water is also chlorinated and I have never noticed that to be detrimental either.

I don't see anything in your description that would fault the potting mix or her potting-up procedure, other than a lack of proper lighting.

[RayR]

Since they were in egg carton trays for so long those roots had to be bound up pretty good. I wouldn't have removed the DE from the roots since the root hairs would be growing into the pores of the DE. Removing them would just damage the roots and stress the plant further. I would have just gently loosened up the root ball a little before potting up.

[ScottinAtlanta]

Originally Posted by Redbaron

I "rescue" seedlings exactly like those every year. Whatever extras I have I put in the "graveyard" ie a section of garden I save for that purpose. About 1/2 or so survive.

Exactly what I do. I put 50 or 60 leftover seedlings into a tiny patch, and use them for replacements as I pull up plants elsewhere. They are 2-3 feet tall by the time I transplant them, so have to water hugely for 2-3 days until they get their new feet into place.

[KarenO]

I wonder if she just simply "pinched" the stems too hard (crushed them accidentally)by handling the seedlings by their stems during the transplanting? easy to do with stretched weak indoor seedlings.
Karen O

[Doug9345]

Originally Posted by stromato

Another sad seedling story:
. . .
It sounds like the backup tray was watered adequately and would have received about 6 hours a day of direct sunlight through the windows, but those seedlings ended up sitting in the window in an egg carton tray of DE for two months with no fertilizer. They were described as never getting more than six inches tall, presumably due to lack of nutrients.

Not just lack of nutrients, but a lack of space for roots.

, “gently removing” the DE from the seedling roots
. . . some of the stems bent over—not at the soil line but about halfway up the stems.

I agree with Karen here most likely damaged stems from over handling. If the plants are individually potted I would not remove the old mix. I'd just separate the roots that had encircled the old space and plant them in the new pot. They will be good with missing leaves but not a damaged stem.

. . . is it just that only very healthy seedlings can tolerate potting up?

I've potted up incredible abused tomato seedlings. Last year I started most of my tomato seed in 3.5 oz cups because I had limit lighted areas for them. I was slow in getting them transplanted up fir various reasons and was finally carrying about 500 cups of plants in and out of the barn and several cars and trucks which I was using to shelter the plants overnight.

I'd put them up at night and taken them out the next morning. I go looking for my Rutgers to pot up when I can't find them. I go back through all my little cups and still can't find them when the light goes on as to where they are. They are in the back window at 11am on a bright sunny day in the heat we had last year. I pull them and the 20 little plants are bone dry and nothing but stems. Of course it's one of the varieties I had no more seed and had promised some plants to someone. I water the little cup, keep it in the shade where they start to grow more leaves and finally transplant them at the end of the week. 17 out of 20 made it. So do tomatoes have to be super strong to be transplanted no, but you can't handle them by the stems when they are small.

[stromato]

Thank you all for your input.

I think this is one of her first gardening experiences so it has upset her. She wants to figure out what happened, and she wants to blame her boyfriend (!) since he gave her the mix and said it was awesome potting mix. I don’t know anything about seedlings under adverse conditions, so I’ve also become curious about what actually happened.

She insists she did not crush or damage the stems and “gently shook” the DE off the roots while always cradling the stem and roots in the palm of her hand. She did move the seedlings out of direct sunlight for two weeks before transplant because she thought the DE was drying out too fast. She did try moving one of the struggling transplanted seedlings into late afternoon direct sunlight for a couple of hours and that killed it quickly, so she decided direct sunlight could not help at that point.

The seedlings eventually all died with their stems rapidly shrinking in diameter either from the tip down or the entire stem at once from about 1/8 inch down to 1/32 inch. Some leaves, in addition to fading in color, also drooped, dried up or shrunk away before the stems drooped completely. She dug up some seedlings when the stems started to droop and found the roots intact and still attached to the stem, appearing like they did when transplanted. The mix was still moist around the roots. In order to prove that it was her boyfriend’s fault, she transplanted a larger tomato plant she got from somewhere into his mix and left it next to the seedlings. The tips of two leaves of the larger plant have dried up about a third of the way back so she wonders if that is proof that the mix is bad.

Is it possible that the pro-mix HP mix (I understand it is peat with perlite added for “high porosity”) could have suffocated the roots with too much moisture? Seems unlikely to me as I thought only standing water, mud, or sopping wet soil could suffocate roots that quickly, but I’m no expert.

Conversely, should the seedlings have been watered more frequently, like daily, even though the surface of the mix remained moist in the containers?

Is it possible that when she pressed down the mix to remove air pockets she crushed the roots enough to injure them all even though the stems were not damaged, the roots remained attached to the stem, and the roots looked OK when she inspected some of them? I have no idea if this kind of injury is likely with peat mix.

It seems like a sudden failure in root function, with failure to transport water up the stem. She says the DE was moist and the stems were strong and straight when she transplanted the seedlings, so would that not rule out the possibility that the seedlings’ roots had already been damaged by drying out days before they were transplanted?

On the other hand, is the description of the way these seedlings died consistent with the top down death that bcday suggested. That is, did they die simply from being moved from direct sunlight to a room with indirect sunlight for two weeks before transplant and left there after transplant?

Alternatively, is there a period of time with no nutrients, like eight or ten weeks, after which seedlings will quickly die however much sunlight they are getting. I was just wondering if there could be such a sudden decline due to no fertilizer or if malnutrition would generally cause a much more gradual decline in observable plant health.

It’s pretty clear that disease had nothing to do with the failure of those seedlings, but just to add a little excitement to this story, if anyone would like to comment: she noticed that the surface of the mix in the larger plant container—which she says has always remained moist even though she only watered it once right after transplanting—now has white “fuzz” growing on it. Also, her boyfriend said there are some gnats in the mix and told her to sprinkle mosquito bitz on the surface of the mix. She says the white “fuzz” especially likes to grow on the mosquito bitz (which I happen to know are bits of dried corn coated with vegetable oil to which the BT adheres). Her boyfriend tells her the white fuzz is commonly seen, harmless, and probably comes from the myco mix additive rather than mold from the corn bits.

Thanks to those who have already made suggestions on some of these questions, but please feel free to elaborate. I appreciate your seedling “CSI” .

[Doug9345]

Originally Posted by stromato

Thank you all for your input.


She insists she did not crush or damage the stems and “gently shook” the DE off the roots while always cradling the stem and roots in the palm of her hand.

Removing soil from roots always does a fair amount of damage to the fine hair roots that the plant uses to pick up water and minerals. I would never touch the stems of a tomato plant until it was maybe a foot tall and had a 1/4" stem or more. It would definitely have to have a "hard" exterior. I handle almost all tomato and pepper transplants by the leaves or root ball.

She did move the seedlings out of direct sunlight for two weeks before transplant because she thought the DE was drying out too fast.

This is the equivalent to not feeding an animal for two weeks. Plants get their energy from sunlight.

She did try moving one of the struggling transplanted seedlings into late afternoon direct sunlight for a couple of hours and that killed it quickly, so she decided direct sunlight could not help at that point.

Just like someone who hasn't eaten in two weeks can't set down to a 9 course dinner. An even better example is someone that spent all winter inside can't go to the tropics and lay out in the sun. She sunburned them.

The seedlings eventually all died with their stems rapidly shrinking in diameter either from the tip down or the entire stem at once from about 1/8 inch down to 1/32 inch. Some leaves, in addition to fading in color, also drooped, dried up or shrunk away before the stems drooped completely. She dug up some seedlings when the stems started to droop and found the roots intact and still attached to the stem, appearing like they did when transplanted.

This is what makes me believe the stems where damaged. The fact that they died top down. All the damping off I've seen happens at the soil line.

The mix was still moist around the roots. In order to prove that it was her boyfriend’s fault, she transplanted a larger tomato plant she got from somewhere into his mix and left it next to the seedlings. The tips of two leaves of the larger plant have dried up about a third of the way back so she wonders if that is proof that the mix is bad.

When someone starts to play the blame game then I also suspect that they leave information out that doesn't fit what they believed happened.

Is it possible that the pro-mix HP mix (I understand it is peat with perlite added for “high porosity”) could have suffocated the roots with too much moisture? Seems unlikely to me as I thought only standing water, mud, or sopping wet soil could suffocate roots that quickly, but I’m no expert.

If it was over watered yes. Pro mix is a standard mix used in huge quantities in greenhouses everywhere. But since the roots look normal I'd say that wasn't the problem. If they had drowned they'd look rotten.

Conversely, should the seedlings have been watered more frequently, like daily, even though the surface of the mix remained moist in the containers?

I'm going to say no. Watering frequency is determined by a host of factors: temperature, relative humidity, planting mix, size of container, and how much water is the plant taking up. Last year when I had 8" tomatoes in 8.5 oz styrofoam cups outside in right sun, I had to water twice a day. I've also had a 4" plant in a 16 oz cup in a window sill that I'd only water every 3 or 4 days. I'm assuming that the mix wasn't bone dry to start with.

Is it possible that when she pressed down the mix to remove air pockets she crushed the roots enough to injure them all even though the stems were not damaged, the roots remained attached to the stem, and the roots looked OK when she inspected some of them? I have no idea if this kind of injury is likely with peat mix.

I'm going to say no here. As long as water will run into the mix it should have enough space for roots to grow.

It seems like a sudden failure in root function,

Transplanting inherently does damage to the roots. cleaning the DE just made it worse. People see the "big' roots and say I didn't damage the roots. It's not the "big" roots that are the problem. It's all the hair roots that are damaged.

with failure to transport water up the stem.

That's why I'm going with stem damage.

She says the DE was moist and the stems were strong and straight when she transplanted the seedlings, so would that not rule out the possibility that the seedlings’ roots had already been damaged by drying out days before they were transplanted?

Tomato plants will grow more roots. You can plant cuttings and they will root .With an inch of the stem under the soil they would of grown roots there.

On the other hand, is the description of the way these seedlings died consistent with the top down death that bcday suggested. That is, did they die simply from being moved from direct sunlight to a room with indirect sunlight for two weeks before transplant and left there after transplant?

The two weeks before didn't help. They basically starved for two weeks. Transplanting them and immediately moving them to bright sun would of killed them for sure.

Alternatively, is there a period of time with no nutrients, like eight or ten weeks, after which seedlings will quickly die however much sunlight they are getting. I was just wondering if there could be such a sudden decline due to no fertilizer or if malnutrition would generally cause a much more gradual decline in observable plant health.

.
Think in terms of yourself getting no vitamins or minerals. You aren't going to immediately die but you health is going to decline.

It’s pretty clear that disease had nothing to do with the failure of those seedlings, but just to add a little excitement to this story, if anyone would like to comment: she noticed that the surface of the mix in the larger plant container—which she says has always remained moist even though she only watered it once right after transplanting—now has white “fuzz” growing on it.

This is definitely a sign of too much water and no enough light.

Also, her boyfriend said there are some gnats in the mix and told her to sprinkle mosquito bitz on the surface of the mix. She says the white “fuzz” especially likes to grow on the mosquito bitz (which I happen to know are bits of dried corn coated with vegetable oil to which the BT adheres). Her boyfriend tells her the white fuzz is commonly seen, harmless, and probably comes from the myco mix additive rather than mold from the corn bits.

By the time the white fuzz appears, which is a mold' it's all over.

Thanks to those who have already made suggestions on some of these questions, but please feel free to elaborate. I appreciate your seedling “CSI” .

You're welcome.

[RayR]

The white mold on the surface is not from the myco's in the Promix. The mold is just a saprotrophic fungi, very common and relatively harmless unless it's forming a dense mat which would be a sign of over watering. Putting a thin layer of the DE on the surface would inhibit the mold.

[Doug9345]

That's good to know about the DE. In my reply I assumed that they had a dense mat.

[stromato]

Thanks for the info RayR. There was not a dense mat, sounds like just a few areas of thin “fuzz” with concentration on the bits, which she removed. She used foliar spray on the leaves of the larger test plant with the drying back leaf tips, so I’m just guessing that the spray moistened the surface of the mix enough to let the fungi get going. One useful observation that may be gleaned from all this is that it might not be a good idea to sprinkle mosquito bits on the surface of plant soil since fungi seem to like them so much.

And thank you, Doug8345, for all of your info and answers. She moistened the mix before transplanting and then watered thoroughly right after transplanting. Although very unlikely, I wondered if that mix could have remained too moist—enough even to kill weak seedlings. But as you pointed out, commercial growers use pro-mix and she did not find any rotten roots, so I think that theory can be discarded.

Damage to root hairs is an interesting possibility, but if that were the mechanism of injury, I’m surprised that every single seedling died.

She says she did not hold any of the stems, but cradled the whole seedling in one hand while “jiggling” the DE out of the roots with the other, holding them by the roots sometimes while transferring. I’m not sure if that could cause the kind of stem damage that Doug9345 is talking about, but I really don’t know much about how fragile small seedling stems can be. Maybe they could be jiggled to death.

I did not know that stems that are dry and have lost all their leaves can recover and grow new leaves, as Doug9345 described, so since seedlings can be that resilient, I remain puzzled as to why not even one of those seedlings survived.

Thanks again to all of you for trying to help figure out what happened with this seedling tragedy.

Doug9245, I think her put the blame on the boyfriend quip is just done in good humor and not really meant seriously. (I think the Pro-mix makers would probably have something to say about that.) My impression is that her description about her first experience with tomato seedlings is reliable.