A question about OP Tomatoes and Yield

Al@NC · January 20, 2016

So I have a question regarding OP tomatoes and adaptation/yield. If a tomato seed is grown for say 3-5 years in a hot humid location such as Florida. And then some of that seed is sent to somewhere north such as Washington state or Maine where there is a different climate, much less humidity, and a much shorter season, wouldn't that seed take a few seasons to adapt? I know there are a lot variables to consider such as the amount of sun a plant receives a day, fertilizer, water etc.

I'm thinking that the reverse would be somewhat true also though, and that if I live in Tacoma WA. and buy seeds from say VictorySeeds.com (not too far from me in Oregon) that the dtm and yield have a better chance of staying true than say seed from Mississippi.

I know that growing George Detsikas Italian Red last season for me was super early in my garden and I have to believe it's partially because the seed was so accustomed to Ontario Canada and to a colder zone than I have...

What are your experiences or thoughts?

Al

Worth1 · January 20, 2016

Just my opinion because some folks here feel otherwise.
I think it takes many many years for something to adapt to an environment.

Worth

Al@NC · January 20, 2016

Thanks Worth,
I was actually thinking that it would be different depending on the extremity of the zone change such as if I grow as the George D. example above, it wouldn't be that much of a change for George, but it might be a much more extreme shock for it to be grown in your garden with your heat?

So I was thinking that the more extreme zone change the longer it may take to adapt? I was just curious if others had experienced the same type of behavior?

Al

Worth1 · January 21, 2016

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al@NC

Thanks Worth,
I was actually thinking that it would be different depending on the extremity of the zone change such as if I grow as the George D. example above, it wouldn't be that much of a change for George, but it might be a much more extreme shock for it to be grown in your garden with your heat?

So I was thinking that the more extreme zone change the longer it may take to adapt? I was just curious if others had experienced the same type of behavior?

Al

Due to my wild ways of doing things I have found the colder climate tomatoes do better for me that are from the former USSR.
Then as the heat sets in I let the smaller tomatoes take over.

The smaller varieties about the size of a tennis ball on down do best.

It is the only way I can get anything I dont care were they come from.

Worth

**carolyn137** · January 21, 2016

I don't believe in adaptation at all, or close to that.

In S CA for instance and many parts of S FL folks can grow two crops of tomatoes each year. I know most about CA and the nurseries there put out short season early varieties for the Fall crop and many of them are from Russia and other areas such as the Siberian ones and more.

Here is a link for the adaptation of Ethiopian wheat and it took thouands of years for that to happen as I recall.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Ethi..._AUIBigA&dpr=1

Carolyn

Worth1 · January 21, 2016

Quote:

Originally Posted by carolyn137

I don't believe in adaptation at all, or close to that.

In S CA for instance and many parts of S FL folks can grow two crops of tomatoes each year. I know most about CA and the nurseries there put out short season early varieties for the Fall crop and many of them are from Russia and other areas such as the Siberian ones and more.

Here is a link for the adaptation of Ethiopian wheat and it took thouands of years for that to happen as I recall.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Ethi..._AUIBigA&dpr=1

Carolyn

That's why I said many many years.

No way did corn make it to the US parts of America over night.

Worth

AlittleSalt · January 21, 2016

This is only my thoughts, I do believe that there is a form of adaptation that happens. I've seen people who move here to Texas from Michigan. Their first summer here is very hard on them. High heat and high humidity does that to a body and mind. The ones that stay have an adaptive easier time here in years that proceed. I think plants do the same thing. In the case of tomatoes - if a tomato seed from Michigan produces a tomato plant here in Texas - and I save seeds from it - next year, those seeds have better chance to thrive here.

But that is my thoughts on the matter. I have NO scientific research or anything else - it's just how I understand nature.

Al@NC · January 21, 2016

Maybe adaptation is not the word to use for what I'm describing. I guess one way to try and research what I'm getting at is if I buy a variety of tomato from Victoryseeds.com such as Black Krim, and then also buy Black Krim (as long as they are both truly Black Krim!) from a seed site such as in the south or southeast and compare the growth and productivity of the two. I think the first year the difference might be the most notable and then the next 2 seasons would be less noticeable?

Does this make sense or do you disagree that I would see any differences?

Thanks AlittleSalt.

Al

Gardeneer · January 21, 2016

In my opinion adaptation occurs all the time but maybe not in one's lifetime. That is another word for a plant becoming "native" . Plants have a certain kind of intelligence as well. They learn to cope with their environments and deal with disease as well. How did the Russian tomatoes become cold tolerant ? were they manipulated genetically by breeders or it happened on their own ? If it can happen in a university experiment, it can happen in the nature though with a smaller probability.
JUST MY OPINION.

Gardeneer

joseph · January 21, 2016

There are several ways that a variety can adapt to different conditions....

1) By changing genetics... Suppose that a tomato variety is inbred for 7 generations of single seed descent... At that point 99.2% of the genetics in the variety should be the same. But that also leaves 0.8% wild genetics that could combine in unexpected ways to provide some benefit to some plants over others. No matter how carefully we maintain a variety, or how many years it is inbred, there is still some possibility for those changes to manifest.

2) Certain environmentally experienced genetic states can be passed on to the offspring even if the underlying DNA does not change... This type of adaptation is reported in cloned crops like garlic. The study of this kind of adaptation is called epigenetics. In tomatoes this could manifest as the parent being exposed to an activation/deactivation trigger before or while the embryos in the seeds are being formed. The embryo will then grow with certain portions of it's DNA being active or inactive. Those active/inactive portions may be different in plants with the same genetics that were grown in different places and experiencing different triggers. The state will continue until the offspring experience a trigger that switches the activation to something different.

3) I believe that cross-pollination is more common than people are willing to admit. In a crop with such a narrow genetic base as tomatoes, cross pollination events can be particularly difficult to spot. I believe that this sort of change happens a lot, and that it isn't noticed.

4) Some varieties are much less genetically homozygous than others... Varieties with more genetic diversity to start with will experience more adaptation as they travel from garden to garden. There are hundreds of genotypes in my landrace tomatoes. When they go to another garden, adaptation to the farmer and the conditions in the new garden is quick and dramatic. (Perhaps not for specific genomes, but for the population as a whole.)

AlittleSalt · January 21, 2016

You're welcome Al

Father'sDaughter · January 21, 2016

While I understand that from a scientific standpoint it isn't possible, based on personal experience I like to think some acclimation can happen. Again and again I have had varieties that do so much better in terms of yield when grown from saved seeds in subsequent years. Maybe it's just a fluke, but that's been my experience.

Al@NC · January 21, 2016

Actually I found an article from the USDA which is a good read (link below). It talks about how cold nights below 50 degrees actually throws off the timing and rhythm of a tomato and reduces yield (imagine that!).

"For example, in tomatoes, if the nighttime temperature were to drop below 50°F at 10 p.m. and not warm up until 8 a.m. the next day, the plant would behave as if it were still night and continue nighttime activities during daylight hours. At the same time, the plant would initiate daytime processes that compete with such ongoing nighttime processes as the breakdown of starch into sugars."

"What makes it doubly intriguing is, if you look at the same things in a native plant, you don't see this effect," he says.

This is probably why tomato breeding programs such as the one in Oregon that gave us Oregon Spring, Willamette and Legend were needed and successful for this area!

Al

Gardeneer · January 21, 2016

Our night low continue to be under 50F well into mid July and by then I am harvesting ripe tomatoes.

Worth1 · January 21, 2016

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gardeneer

Our night low continue to be under 50F well into mid July and by then I am harvesting ripe tomatoes.

We need to move to Ecuador.

Worth

January 20, 2016	#1
Al@NC Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Vernon, BC Posts: 720	A question about OP Tomatoes and Yield So I have a question regarding OP tomatoes and adaptation/yield. If a tomato seed is grown for say 3-5 years in a hot humid location such as Florida. And then some of that seed is sent to somewhere north such as Washington state or Maine where there is a different climate, much less humidity, and a much shorter season, wouldn't that seed take a few seasons to adapt? I know there are a lot variables to consider such as the amount of sun a plant receives a day, fertilizer, water etc. I'm thinking that the reverse would be somewhat true also though, and that if I live in Tacoma WA. and buy seeds from say VictorySeeds.com (not too far from me in Oregon) that the dtm and yield have a better chance of staying true than say seed from Mississippi. I know that growing George Detsikas Italian Red last season for me was super early in my garden and I have to believe it's partially because the seed was so accustomed to Ontario Canada and to a colder zone than I have... What are your experiences or thoughts? Al

January 21, 2016	#5
carolyn137 Moderator Emeritus Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Upstate NY, zone 4b/5a Posts: 21,169	I don't believe in adaptation at all, or close to that. In S CA for instance and many parts of S FL folks can grow two crops of tomatoes each year. I know most about CA and the nurseries there put out short season early varieties for the Fall crop and many of them are from Russia and other areas such as the Siberian ones and more. Here is a link for the adaptation of Ethiopian wheat and it took thouands of years for that to happen as I recall. https://www.google.com/search?q=Ethi..._AUIBigA&dpr=1 Carolyn __________________ Carolyn

January 21, 2016	#10
joseph Tomatovillian™ Join Date: May 2013 Location: Cache Valley, N/E of The Great Salt Lake Posts: 1,244	There are several ways that a variety can adapt to different conditions.... 1) By changing genetics... Suppose that a tomato variety is inbred for 7 generations of single seed descent... At that point 99.2% of the genetics in the variety should be the same. But that also leaves 0.8% wild genetics that could combine in unexpected ways to provide some benefit to some plants over others. No matter how carefully we maintain a variety, or how many years it is inbred, there is still some possibility for those changes to manifest. 2) Certain environmentally experienced genetic states can be passed on to the offspring even if the underlying DNA does not change... This type of adaptation is reported in cloned crops like garlic. The study of this kind of adaptation is called epigenetics. In tomatoes this could manifest as the parent being exposed to an activation/deactivation trigger before or while the embryos in the seeds are being formed. The embryo will then grow with certain portions of it's DNA being active or inactive. Those active/inactive portions may be different in plants with the same genetics that were grown in different places and experiencing different triggers. The state will continue until the offspring experience a trigger that switches the activation to something different. 3) I believe that cross-pollination is more common than people are willing to admit. In a crop with such a narrow genetic base as tomatoes, cross pollination events can be particularly difficult to spot. I believe that this sort of change happens a lot, and that it isn't noticed. 4) Some varieties are much less genetically homozygous than others... Varieties with more genetic diversity to start with will experience more adaptation as they travel from garden to garden. There are hundreds of genotypes in my landrace tomatoes. When they go to another garden, adaptation to the farmer and the conditions in the new garden is quick and dramatic. (Perhaps not for specific genomes, but for the population as a whole.) Last edited by joseph; January 21, 2016 at 07:56 PM.

January 21, 2016	#13
Al@NC Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Vernon, BC Posts: 720	Actually I found an article from the USDA which is a good read (link below). It talks about how cold nights below 50 degrees actually throws off the timing and rhythm of a tomato and reduces yield (imagine that!). "For example, in tomatoes, if the nighttime temperature were to drop below 50°F at 10 p.m. and not warm up until 8 a.m. the next day, the plant would behave as if it were still night and continue nighttime activities during daylight hours. At the same time, the plant would initiate daytime processes that compete with such ongoing nighttime processes as the breakdown of starch into sugars." *"What makes it doubly intriguing is, if you look at the same things in a native plant, you don't see this effect," he says.* This is probably why tomato breeding programs such as the one in Oregon that gave us Oregon Spring, Willamette and Legend were needed and successful for this area! Al Last edited by Al@NC; January 21, 2016 at 01:43 AM.

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January 20, 2016	#2
Worth1 Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Den of Drunken Fools Posts: 38,539	Just my opinion because some folks here feel otherwise. I think it takes many many years for something to adapt to an environment. Worth

January 21, 2016	#7
AlittleSalt BANNED FOR LIFE Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 13,333	This is only my thoughts, I do believe that there is a form of adaptation that happens. I've seen people who move here to Texas from Michigan. Their first summer here is very hard on them. High heat and high humidity does that to a body and mind. The ones that stay have an adaptive easier time here in years that proceed. I think plants do the same thing. In the case of tomatoes - if a tomato seed from Michigan produces a tomato plant here in Texas - and I save seeds from it - next year, those seeds have better chance to thrive here. But that is my thoughts on the matter. I have NO scientific research or anything else - it's just how I understand nature.

January 21, 2016	#9
Gardeneer Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: NC - zone 8a - heat zone 7 Posts: 4,919	In my opinion adaptation occurs all the time but maybe not in one's lifetime. That is another word for a plant becoming "native" . Plants have a certain kind of intelligence as well. They learn to cope with their environments and deal with disease as well. How did the Russian tomatoes become cold tolerant ? were they manipulated genetically by breeders or it happened on their own ? If it can happen in a university experiment, it can happen in the nature though with a smaller probability. JUST MY OPINION. Gardeneer

January 21, 2016	#12
Father'sDaughter Tomatovillian™ Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: MA/NH Border Posts: 4,919	While I understand that from a scientific standpoint it isn't possible, based on personal experience I like to think some acclimation can happen. Again and again I have had varieties that do so much better in terms of yield when grown from saved seeds in subsequent years. Maybe it's just a fluke, but that's been my experience.