Heart shaped Brandywine, RL or PL?

[JosephineRose]

Potting up my seedlings today, and I realized one of my three heart-shaped Brandywine seedlings is a potato leaf.

Tatiana's site says RL, but there is not much info.

I've never stumbled on a mutation like that before. I was only going to grow out one of these seedlings, but now I think I have plant one of each… I can't resist.

[Al@NC]

Where did you get your seeds?

Al

[JosephineRose]

Purchased online.

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by JosephineRose

Potting up my seedlings today, and I realized one of my three heart-shaped Brandywine seedlings is a potato leaf.

Tatiana's site says RL, but there is not much info.

I've never stumbled on a mutation like that before. I was only going to grow out one of these seedlings, but now I think I have plant one of each… I can't resist.

Which Brandywine are you referring to,the pink,the red,the yellow, etc.?

And I ask b/c it makes a BIG difference as to leaf form,the pink being PL and the red being RL..

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/w...b=General_Info

The one above is red, so should be RL.

What did your seed pack say, and what did the online place where you bought your seeds say?

Carolyn, also noting that it's hard to make conclusions when growing just a couple of plants b'c you don 't know if it was a stray seed that got into a pack,that has happened.

[JosephineRose]

I'm assuming it is the RL Red Brandywine based on that very listing. Then again, would it be possible to have a heart shaped variety of any tomato with potato leaves?


I got my seeds from mariseeds. The online description on her page does not reference leaf type for this particular plant. I have messaged her.


The packet the seeds came in is a simple envelope, hand printed, not formally printed with a description of the type included. A few other vendors do the same.

It occurred to me that it may be a stray seed from some random PL variety. All the more reason to grow it out and see what I get I'd think. It's like a little bonus mystery tomato!


My question — and Carolyn, thank you for replying to the thread because I'm certain you will have the answer — is what if it is a mutation? What problems could be expected at grow out?

Thanks very much.

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Which Brandywine are you referring to,the pink,the red,the yellow, etc.?

And I ask b/c it makes a BIG difference as to leaf form,the pink being PL and the red being RL..

http://t.tatianastomatobase.com:88/w...b=General_Info

The one above is red, so should be RL.

What did your seed pack say, and what did the online place where you bought your seeds say?

Carolyn, also noting that it's hard to make conclusions when growing just a couple of plants b'c you don 't know if it was a stray seed that got into a pack,that has happened.

[ginger2778]

Several heart shaped PL plants. One that comes to mind is Heshpole.named for its shape and leaves.
He= heart
Sh= shape
Po= potato
Le = leafed

Even if it is a mutation, I doubt you will encounter problems, but don't please pass on the seeds because you dont know what it is.
It could also be a cross with a RL, PL, and instead the F2 you will average 25% PL plants.

[JosephineRose]

Good point.

That brings up a secondary question about the origins of new varieties… how long is safe for a grow out?

I'm thinking of the rise of the well-loved Girl Girl's Weird Thing, for example. My understanding is that arose from a mutation in the field… it was supposed to be Green Zebra. Isn't that also how several of Brad Gates' varieties came to be?

So how many generations make it a safe mutation?

Originally Posted by ginger2778

Several heart shaped PL plants. One that comes to mind is Heshpole.named for its shape and leaves.
He= heart
Sh= shape
Po= potato
Le = leafed

Even if it is a mutation, I doubt you will encounter problems, but don't please pass on the seeds because you dont know what it is.
It could also be a cross with a RL, PL, and instead the F2 you will average 25% PL plants.

[JosephineRose]

Adding that I copy your message on F2 generation. Just found the genetics thread and read the stats.

Since I bought the seeds, I lean toward the likelihood that it's a stray. Still, I checked my notes and I started three seeds and had three come up, two were RL, 1 PL.

Interesting, should it be a case of cross pollination or mutation. Based on everyone's reply I'm gathering the following:

1) Most likely a stray.
2) Next most likely explanation is cross pollination.
3) Least likely is a mutation.

Am I way off here? Should be interesting to see what I get at grow out.

Thanks for all the suggestions, everyone.

[ginger2778]

Originally Posted by JosephineRose

Adding that I copy your message on F2 generation. Just found the genetics thread and read the stats.

Since I bought the seeds, I lean toward the likelihood that it's a stray. Still, I checked my notes and I started three seeds and had three come up, two were RL, 1 PL.

Interesting, should it be a case of cross pollination or mutation. Based on everyone's reply I'm gathering the following:

1) Most likely a stray.
2) Next most likely explanation is cross pollination.
3) Least likely is a mutation.

Am I way off here? Should be interesting to see what I get at grow out.

Thanks for all the suggestions, everyone.

You are not off, pretty on target actually.
F7 is usually considered basically stable, but some small segregations may still happen.
By safe mutation, you mean stable, right?

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by JosephineRose

Good point.

That brings up a secondary question about the origins of new varieties… how long is safe for a grow out?

I'm thinking of the rise of the well-loved Girl Girl's Weird Thing, for example. My understanding is that arose from a mutation in the field… it was supposed to be Green Zebra. Isn't that also how several of Brad Gates' varieties came to be?

So how many generations make it a safe mutation?

You planted only 3 seeds,two plants had RL foliage and one had PL foliage and I assume the fruits were the same on both the RL or PL plants,but if these are just seedlings now,not yet mature fruits,it's too early to make any conclusions.

With regard to leaf form and mutations,it takes two separate mutations to go from homozygous dominant RL,that means two identical genes,then to heterzygous, and RL is stil dominant,to homozygous recessive,that's PL,and the likelihood of that happening is remote.

If it were a single spontaneous mutation in the DNA of the seed,yes that could happen as well,and such mutations are permanent and stable.

But at this point I'm thinking more of a possible cross polllination that occurred with seeds you received,that gave you the PL plant. And that is not all that uncommon with purchased seeds,and depends on whether a vendor grows their own plants for seed production or buys bulk seeds elsewhere,or sub contracts out.

Marianne Jones and her companion grow all they offer for seeds,last I knew. But a couple of years ago they lost almost all of their plants due to weather,so that complicates the issue fo rme, not knowing if they did purchase seed or not.

Call me confused,but I still am not sure if you bought seeds that were for the RL Red Brandywine or the pink PL one.

Carolyn

[JosephineRose]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

Marianne Jones and her companion grow all they offer for seeds,last I knew. But a couple of years ago they lost almost all of their plants due to weather,so that complicates the issue fo rme, not knowing if they did purchase seed or not.

Call me confused,but I still am not sure if you bought seeds that were for the RL Red Brandywine or the pink PL one.

Carolyn

Thank you for the reply!

Yes, too soon to tell. But I'm looking forward to the grow out to see what I get!

I bought "heart shaped Brandywine", described as distinct from Red or Pink Brandywine, with no mention of leaf type in the description. It is described as similar to Red Brandywine, but different:

"Brandywine, Heart Shaped tomatoes are a favorite.
I got the seeds from my good "Tomato Pal", Darrell Merrell.
Plants produced incredible amounts of yummy, full flavored, brilliant red fruits. Some are 4-6 oz. and heart shaped but others are a gigantic 2 lbs.
Very similar to Red Brandywine, but a bit brighter and richer."

I'm excited to see what I end up with.

[Al@NC]

The reason I asked where you got the seeds is so that we could determine what the leaf is supposed to be. I didn't know if it was from a seed offer here or what. There have been some new varieties offered lately.

Al

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by JosephineRose

Thank you for the reply!

Yes, too soon to tell. But I'm looking forward to the grow out to see what I get!

I bought "heart shaped Brandywine", described as distinct from Red or Pink Brandywine, with no mention of leaf type in the description. It is described as similar to Red Brandywine, but different:

"Brandywine, Heart Shaped tomatoes are a favorite.
I got the seeds from my good "Tomato Pal", Darrell Merrell.
Plants produced incredible amounts of yummy, full flavored, brilliant red fruits. Some are 4-6 oz. and heart shaped but others are a gigantic 2 lbs.
Very similar to Red Brandywine, but a bit brighter and richer."

I'm excited to see what I end up with.

If above is the description that was at Marianne Jones site that's easy to check b/c I knew Darrell very well,his daughter took over for him when he died and somewhere in my faves I have the link to the website.

It could be Marianne referring to him as her tomato pal,which is a stretch,but possible,but certainly not her companion and Marianne does write most of the blurb descriptions,but not all.

Carolyn

[JosephineRose]

Originally Posted by carolyn137

If above is the description that was at Marianne Jones site that's easy to check b/c I knew Darrell very well,his daughter took over for him when he died and somewhere in my faves I have the link to the website.

It could be Marianne referring to him as her tomato pal,which is a stretch,but possible,but certainly not her companion and Marianne does write most of the blurb descriptions,but not all.

Carolyn

Unless he passed away recently, wouldn't that suggest Marianne got the original seeds or plants from him and then did the grow out herself?

Do you think his daughter might have information on the origin of the variety?

[carolyn137]

Originally Posted by JosephineRose

Unless he passed away recently, wouldn't that suggest Marianne got the original seeds or plants from him and then did the grow out herself?

Do you think his daughter might have information on the origin of the variety?

No,he didn't pass away recently and yes,he used to sell seeds many years ago, but his daughter Lisa sells only plants at her nursery in OK and does not ship.

I started with my link in my faves,it was a dead link,then went to Google and all references were for dead links,then slightly altered my Google search and came up with 4 links to give you.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/scene/food...8090b8b86.html

Above has no direct link to her site but tells you a bit about her father.

http://tomatomansdaughter.squarespace.com/

The above has contact links

http://static1.squarespace.com/stati...+BB+3-21-3.pdf

The above is a list of plants being offered and contact information and you can scroll down and see if anything looks familiar to you

https://www.facebook.com/tomatomansd...t&tab=overview

The above a facebook link also wih contact info.

So you can contact her,I think there was an e-mail addy which is best,and then cut and paste what was given at Marianne's site and ask her if she knows anything about it.

But again,until your plants are mature,it seems to me to be somewhat of a guessing game, but no harm at least contacting her.

Last question, why did you sow just three seeds when I know there must have been many more seeds in the pack,had you done so I think it would have been much easier to figure out this situation.

Can I assume that Marianne has not yet gotten back to you?

Carolyn