Heirlooms are Stabilized Hybrids.

[Vince]

Since most heirlooms, were probably stabilized accidental crosses, at what point should one consider an OP derived from any cross an Heirloom. Is their a time convention, say 20 years? Or is it an exclusitivity thing, meaning one family grows it for a while before it gets spread around. Your thoughts are appreciated.

Vince

[feldon30]

Heirloom is getting to be a loaded word. I explained, for instance, to a local nursery that Green Zebra and Green Grape are not heirlooms but varieties that were bred and then stabilized to an O.P. state.

I'm getting to use heirloom as a general term to folks who don't know what "open-pollinated" means, rather than a specific term because nobody can agree on the specifics.

[Bryan24]

Dunno.....But TGS lists Earl's Faux as an heirloom. I think that's why most of us prefer the term open pollinated instead of heirloom, since there doesn't seem to be any consistancy. I think somewhere along the line on that other site, there was a debate. I don't think it really got anywhere, though. I want to say it was generally agreed that heirloom meant older (like with antiques, 25+ yrs, I think), but most people tended to lump OP and Heirloom into the same catagory. I could be wrong on my memory, though.....

laurel-tx

[carolyn137]

I like to say that all tomato heirlooms are OP but not all OP's are heirlooms. And I'm sticking to my story.

Since about 95% of all heirlooms came from dehybridization of an intial hybrid due to X pollination and the other 5% from a mutation from a pre=existing variety, then I think any recent dehybridized OP such as OTV Brandywine, Earl's Faux, Black Brandywine, orange Russian #117 and the like should be looked at as "created" or "mystery" type heirlooms as I discussed in my book and not family type heirlooms.

But few make that distinction, which I think is a valuable one. Whatever.

And no way am I going to get dragged into trying to define a category of tomatoes simply called heirlooms.

That was recently discussed at GW, with much rancor, and I simply do NOT want to participate in that discussion again.

So how long does one wait for OTV Brandywine or Orange Russian #117 to become heirlooms? In my opinion those will never be heirlooms but that's according to my view of the situation. Maybe a mystery heirloom for OTV and a created one for the 117 one since Jeff Dawson deliberately bred it, but not just the word heirloom.

So please continue your discussion of how to define ONE category of tomatoes by ONE word called heirloom, but don't look for me to participate since it' s been discussed/argued so recently elsewhere.

[johno]

I like your "created" and "mystery" distinctions. I hadn't thought of putting it that way.

[Vince]

Sorry if this is a controversial topic. I was not trying to stir up anything, just trying to understand the specifics of this H and OP terminology. We do not have to continue if anybodey is upset with this topic. Cheers

Vince.

[carolyn137]

We do not have to continue if anybodey is upset with this topic. Cheers


****

Of course you should continue.

I would assume that most folks who don't want to discuss it wouldn't post.

I posted b'c I had written in my book about various definitions for heirlooms and also have in the past participated in various threads having to do with that subject.

So I'm the only one so far who really doesn't want to continue for the reasons I gave above and still urges folks to look at that GW thread, if they wish, for a very intense discussion of definitions of heirlooms.

So carry on.

[landarc]

To me, the operative definition in the use of the word heirloom suggests some sense of heritability or generational continuity within a family. Hence, many of the varieties of plants we consider to be heirlooms are, in reality OP, and unique, even old varieties. But, I do not consider them as heirlooms. Recently, the concept and use of heirloom as it apllies to OP vegetables and plants has become a part of the lexicon. However, when I was growing up, these were referred to as antique varieties or traditional verieties. I think any of these titles can serve to identify some of what we grow, but, as with anytime a diverse and varied grouping is identified under one label, the label will rarely fit any well.

[Suze]

Originally Posted by Vince_chemist

[...]at what point should one consider an OP derived from any cross an Heirloom.

In my book, never. However, I don't care for the term heirloom at all. Part of the reason why is who decides "at what point", and what purpose does this (arbitrary) distinction serve anyway? Another reason I'm not fond of the H word is because it is way overused as a marketing term.

I guess I just don't see the value in it. I consider varieties to be either OP or hybrid (or segregating).

What I personally do see the value in is knowing the proper history of a variety.

[Ruth_10]

I guess I just don't see the value in it. I consider varieties to be either OP or hybrid (or segregating).

What I personally do see the value in is knowing the proper history of a variety.

I agree with Suze. Hybrid (F1), open pollinated (stable), or "in transit" (Fx).

[Big_Red]

Part of the reason why is who decides "at what point", and what purpose does this (arbitrary) distinction serve anyway?

Suze - I believe the term "Heirloom" IS a very important distinction. For instance, I have a Vermont Cranberry Pole Bean that has been in my family for generations, I have grown it myself for forty some-odd years. I consider this particular strain an heirloom. On the other hand, all beans are OP and will grow back true, even if crossed purposely to create a new cultivar.

[Lee]

Well, all I'll say is this. My china cabinet (recently purchased) ain't an heirloom.
If my kids (now 4&2) give it to my grandkids, it will be an heirloom.

If they give 'em Lucky Cross seeds at the same time, they will also be an heirloom, although right now neither are.

Lee

[Suze]

Originally Posted by Big_Red

Suze - I believe the term "Heirloom" IS a very important distinction. For instance, I have a Vermont Cranberry Pole Bean that has been in my family for generations, I have grown it myself for forty some-odd years. I consider this particular strain an heirloom. On the other hand, all beans are OP and will grow back true, even if crossed purposely to create a new cultivar.

Would you feel the same way if, say, your Vermont Cranberry Pole Bean was yukky? I am making the assumption that it is a good/great variety, else no one would have bothered to continue to grow it and save it.

Is *that* part of what makes it an heirloom to you? The fact that someone did value the variety enough to save it?

What if you were the first generation in your family to have grown it, and maybe only for 10 or 15 years. Would it be an heirloom then? If not, why not, and who decides or sets the criteria that would qualify this variety for heirloom status?

I guess I am asking, what are your definitions of 'heirloom'?

[nctomatoman]

I get so frustrated at these discussions, only because they are unresolveable. The term "heirloom" was coined with the advent of the SSE, and some books written around that time - and the original definition was, I believe, a representation of open pollinated varieties that were treasured enough to be maintained by sharing and handing down. It is a shame that it has become so divisive. I've certainly grown some family hand-me-downs that I won't grow again - they were valued to someone, but not to me. But, because taste is so individual, who am I to defrock it from "heirloom" to - what - simple "OP" status?

Anyway, I certainly understand why some folks want to get specific about the definitions - and also why some are not as concerned - again, not only tastes are different, but needs for various specificity of terms. Putting a time print on it is a challenge because time marches on (do we create a sliding scale)? And, as others have mentioned, tomato varieties are arising just as some of those older, "heirlooms" arose - from bee created crosses, then selection.

To me, what is absolutely relevant are whether it is a hybrid or not - so to know if I can save seeds and expect to get the same. If I can get the same, my next level of interest is its history.

What a great time to be a tomato grower! So many choices!

[Andrey_BY]

I'm with Suze and I believe all Eastern Europe does as well. There are OP and Hybrid varieties, old and new. Nobody knows what is "a heirloom variety". If somebody likes any particular OP variety he/she maintains it for years and share seeds with friends and neighboors. No time terms of existense of any variety or any other special conditions used...

There is 2 kind of OP varieties here - commercial and non-commercial (I tried to translate directly our Russian definition word "lyubitel'skie" as "amateur", but see that you define "amateur" more as "novice with no experience and needed skills" than "non-commercial" as we do here).

I'm not against using the word "heirloom", but I see a lot of speculations with it from commercial seed companies and between gardeners...