Savoury juicing varieties please.

[ukulele01]

Hi there. I live in Zone 4B. I am looking for a mid-season variety with that will ripen in <78 days, with a somewhat concentrated fruit set, with the following qualities:

1.) strong "beefy" flavour (high glutamic acid).

2.) high acid.

3.) juicy.

I will be juicing the tomatoes, which will be fermented into alcohol, and then into vinegar.

I was thinking of a red heirloom like Costoluto Genovese, which I tried to grow once, but it did not ripen fast enough.

I will be growing them in the ground.

Thanks in advance.

[jmsieglaff]

I don't know about "beefy" flavor, but one year I tried Silvery Fir Tree and I'd say it matched the later two bullet points. It also checks the ripening DTM requested and also somewhat concentrated fruit set. Very pretty foliage as well. I'd try some in your juicing collection along with some others so you can what you like/works best.

[chonas]

Will you be using koji as your fermentation starter? It converts starches into sugar (and glutamics). It's the basis of soy sauce, sake, and miso.

[ukulele01]

Originally Posted by chonas

Will you be using koji as your fermentation starter? It converts starches into sugar (and glutamics). It's the basis of soy sauce, sake, and miso.

I was planning to use beer yeast.

I had not considered koji. Would that work? I thought koji required glutinous starch (amylopectin). Tomatoes are low in starch....Interesting idea though.

[jmsieglaff]

As a homebrewer, I'm very curious to hear how the brewer's yeast does, I hope you share results. I would suspect the bacteria naturally present on the tomatoes would yield a bacteria+yeast fermentation, unless you pasteurize your juice first.

[chonas]

Originally Posted by ukulele01

I was planning to use beer yeast.

I had not considered koji. Would that work? I thought koji required glutinous starch (amylopectin). Tomatoes are low in starch....Interesting idea though.

People use koji on all sorts of stuff, ferment temp determines output. Lower temp protein out, higher temp sugar out. Amylopectin does cause more sugar production, but you can also use koji to supercharge dry aging beef. If I'm allowed to rec external sources there's a really good facebook group on fermenting with koji.

[ukulele01]

Originally Posted by jmsieglaff

As a homebrewer, I'm very curious to hear how the brewer's yeast does, I hope you share results. I would suspect the bacteria naturally present on the tomatoes would yield a bacteria+yeast fermentation, unless you pasteurize your juice first.

I am a homebrewer too. Trying to decide if dipping the tomatoes in Starsan prior to juicing, plus sanitizing my juicer with Starsan, would be adequate, or if I should to heat the juice to pasteurization temp....My understanding is that acetobacter are sensitive to sodium metabisulphite, so that is not an option for sanitizing the juice....

In the past I have used a killer (wine) yeast strain for alcohol fermentation, prior to adding acetobacter for vinegar fermentation, but I really want to try beer yeast, as they clean up faster / mature quicker. Beer yeast have been selected for quick turnaround times. With wine and champagne yeast, a lot of aging is required to get rid of the acetaldehyde and fusel alcohols....

[jmsieglaff]

Really interesting project! Maybe try a tiny run with starsan, juice the tomatoes and proceed with the beer yeast and see how the ferment tastes?

[ukulele01]

Originally Posted by jmsieglaff

Really interesting project! Maybe try a tiny run with starsan, juice the tomatoes and proceed with the beer yeast and see how the ferment tastes?

Yes, I will.

Still looking for some suggestions for beefy tasting tomato varieties....

[KarenO]

Brutus or George Detsikas Italian red come to mind. I think they would make delicious juice. Both Midseason but if you want to do big batches determinates might be better.
KarenO

[zipcode]

Wouldn't the amount of sugar be more important if you're fermenting, in terms of final sourness?

Pink Berkley Tie Die is one of the sourest tomatoes I've had. Not always, usually towards the end of the season. It seems to have decent sweetness also somewhere beneath. Reasonably early. Very juicy.

[ukulele01]

Originally Posted by zipcode

Wouldn't the amount of sugar be more important if you're fermenting, in terms of final sourness?

Are you talking about how the sugar gets converted to alcohol, which then gets converted to acetic acid, so the more sugar, the more sour? Yes, that is true.

For something to be called vinegar it must contain at least 4% acetic acid, although a lot of vinegars are 5-6%. Personally, I will be aiming for 4% as the citric acid from the tomatoes will also be providing some acidity.

For 4% acetic acid I will need a "wine" that is 5% ABV, which requires a juice that is 10 Brix. I read that the Brix of most tomatoes (with the exception of cherry) is between 3.5-5.5, so I am going to have to add some sugar.

[ukulele01]

Stop the presses! Just came across this study which says that cherry tomatoes actually have the most glutamic acid. Cherry >plum >salad >beefstake. Wow, interesting. It is the opposite of what I thought.

It is the inner jelly part, with the seeds, that has the most glutamic acid.

Overripe tomatoes have more glutamic acid than ripe, which have more than underripe.

https://www.umamiinfo.com/richfood/f...ff/tomato.html

This works out in a lot of ways as cherry varieties are much higher in brix too, so I won't have to add much (if any) sugar. The brix of cherry varieties averages 6-10.

[Fusion_power]

Three suggestions for varieties. Wisconsin 55, Lorelei cherry, and Hibor cherry. Hibor can kick out 13% soluble solids which means it is sugar sweet. Lorelei is a nice red cherry with high sugar in the 7 to 8 percent range plus exceptionally good flavor. Wisconsin 55 is a medium sized slicer about 5% brix but ripens in your required timeframe. It is a possibility if you add some sugar.

[jmsieglaff]

As one who has grown Wisconsin 55 many times, it also checks the semi concentrated fruit set, I guess semi-determinate is a good description. It has ample juice and good flavor. I guess I struggle with the beefy flavor in a tomato, but that is probably just my palate.